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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 30 2011, 01:01 PM   #406
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Deks wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Deks wrote: View Post

We could also say that the queen was invented by the Collective to try and specifically deal with Humanity... or at least use her as a 'test run' (one that would end with 'Endgame' - I kinda like the thought that the Collective decided to never create a 'queen' again because it was essentially one giant failure of an experiment).

But the Hanson's and Starfleet knew all about the Queen well before Picard ran into his first cube, by a decade at least!

Humanity had nothing to do with her "invention".

"Fictional Character"?

That's quitters talk lobes.

Besides, I framed my bollocks by saying "retroactively" which I really really didn't have to do.

Haven't you read 1984?
Ah... but the Queen was first seen in FC.
The debris from the sphere which traveled back in time were recovered by SF in Archer's time.
Therefore, the queen could have been made after the Collective received the transmission from the drones in 'regeneration'.
The Borg going back in time created at least two recognizably different timelines, that we saw, one where the earth had been assimilated 300 years earlier from Picards perspective, and second where the Queen got her ass kicked after Picard followed followed her into the past like a love sick school boy to pull her pigtails.

Clearly one resultant universe from the their timetravel botchjob was preferable to the other, but if one result of the Borg playing god with time births a monumentally different new universe, then any changes they made to the past, no matter how slight, would always create a new universe no matter how almost exactly the same and familiar that new universe may seem, when using the same technology during the same story, because we have to consider at the bare minimum that level of consistency with these "people" don't hate themselves.

To wit there was no assured destiny from their fiddling which means that there was no predestiny to their fiddling, and more importantly, if the Borg had gotten tech upgrades to their current degree of sophistication, it would be redundant as well as obviously suicidal and unnecessary to double on giving their juniors a the same information all over again since obviously...

It's not like regular universe Picard felt compelled to send Tasha Yar's Corpse back in time to a Romulan prison camp to assure that Sela Year was born.

Cross-fertilization.

You know who would have made a fantastic Borg Queen in that movie, that would have made the fanboys do a Mexican wave in the theatre and damn the consequences?

Jennifer Sisko.
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Old December 30 2011, 07:48 PM   #407
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
This thread really won't die huh. All I'm gonna say is that Voyager taking on the Borg tactical cube was absurd.
No more absurd than the Ent-D with a skeleton crew taking on the Borg ship from "Descent".

And guess what? The Skeleton crew WON against that ship! Destroyed it and everything.
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Old December 30 2011, 09:35 PM   #408
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

You mock the savvy cunning battled hardened prowess of Captain Dancing Doctor?

But seriously.

One drone should be able to take out the entire Federation if s/he was careful.
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Old December 30 2011, 10:41 PM   #409
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I was always amused by Captain Ransom saying, "The Borg? We haven't seen so much as a cube."

"So much as a cube"? Time was when the mere mention of a cube required a change of trousers. Now it seems that a single cube isn't a challenge for even a busted-ass science vessel with half its crew dead.
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Old December 31 2011, 12:30 AM   #410
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
No more absurd than the Ent-D with a skeleton crew taking on the Borg ship from "Descent".
To me, it is. Much more absurd.
The Borg ship in "Descent" was a ship cobbled together by some rogue drones vs the flagship of the Federation. And yes, it had a smaller crew complement but that's all that's needed to control the battle functions of the ship, they didn't exactly need the stellar cartography and archaeology departments to be at 100% capacity to defeat it now did they? And the borg tactical cube was the absolute cutting edge in Borg technology vs a ship that wasn't made for battle and only had some now outdated Borg inside knowledge.

I just wonder what was going through your head when making the comparison and deciding both situations were equally "absurd".
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Old December 31 2011, 01:34 AM   #411
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Borg ship in "Descent" WAS a real Borg ship. It wasn't some patchwork thing, it was an authentic Borg ship.

The Borg Tactical Cube was smaller and weaker than an Assimilation Cube, the name alone (Tactical, not strategic) suggests that its' not meant for Civilization Assimilating like the Assimilation Cubes are.

Also, VOY was more advanced than the ENT-D was (it was a post-Wolf 359 ship) and by the time of "Unimatrix" it had already been augmented by superior tech several times so it wasn't just some normal Fed ship anymore.

Hell, if they had done what Crusher did and use the power of a Star to damage the Tactical Cube (not even destroy it) the reaction would've just been "It's utterly absurd that a Borg ship could be damaged by a solar flare, the Borg should be stronger than a Sun!"

Maybe they should've just used the tiny Probe ship again? Have it be some big life-or-death struggle for the VOY crew to simply survive an encounter with a weak Probe ship, just to show how pathetic they are that they can't beat a Probe whereas Picard and co can destroy an Assimilation Cube, Crusher can destroy the Renegade Borg Cruiser and Sisko can defeat any Dominion vessel he comes across?

Would that be less absurd, making the crew utterly pathetic losers who barely survive run-ins with Probes?
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Old December 31 2011, 01:55 AM   #412
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Uh wow, you're just so clueless.

-The whole idea of a tactical cube is that its the most powerful type of cube, maybe you should rewatch the episode. Your understanding of "tactical" also seems to be lacking, it refers to military action and would therefore have supreme firepower and shielding (as we saw)
-The Intrepid class is more advanced than the Galaxy glass, but not more powerful. There's a difference.
-Its technology had been augmented by Seven's know-how, so what? Now it can take on the entire borg fleet just because it has a single ex-drone on board that's been out of the loop for 3 years? Does that mean Borg technology hasn't advanced or changed an inch in that time?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Would that be less absurd, making the crew utterly pathetic losers who barely survive run-ins with Probes?
What on earth are you banging on about now? There was no need for the intrepid class to be up against a borg tactical cube for the sake of the story, all it served to do was portray the borg as weaker.
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Old December 31 2011, 02:39 AM   #413
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Tactical

—adj
1. of, relating to, or employing tactics: a tactical error
2. (of weapons, attacks, etc) used in or supporting limited military operations: a tactical missile; tactical bombing
3. skilful or diplomatic: a tactical manoeuvre

'tactically

—adv
and

tactical

[tak-ti-kuhl]   Origin

Tactical Definition

tac·ti·cal

adjective
1.
of or pertaining to tactics, especially military or naval tactics.
2.
characterized by skillful tactics or adroit maneuvering or procedure: tactical movements.
3.
of or pertaining to a maneuver or plan of action designed as an expedient toward gaining a desired end or temporary advantage.
4.
expedient; calculated.
5.
prudent; politic.
The word "Tactical" isn't about overwhelming force, it's about an intelligent crippling strike on the enemy.

Would you really use a SWAT team to stop a riot?
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Old December 31 2011, 02:40 AM   #414
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

But like I said, the Tactical Cube is much smaller than an Assimilation Cube. It's not much bigger than the Descent Borg ship, it's clearly much smaller than an Assimilation Cube (then again, the Borg Cube from First Contact is also smaller than the Cube from TNG).

"Tactical" is meant for more immediate battle-actions, as opposed to "Strategic" which is more "Big Picture" and long-term (which fits the Assimilation Cube). This can be extrapolated to mean that the Tactical Cube isn't meant for civilization-assimilating like the Assimilation Cube, but for battles before that (to soften them for full-on Assimilation).

VOY had been augmented by Seven, and then by "One" the 29th Century Drone. That should make it capable of not dying instantly against a Borg ship weaker than an Assimilation Cube.

There was no need for the intrepid class to be up against a borg tactical cube for the sake of the story
The story required them to get onto a Borg ship. Would you have been satisfied with the crew pissing themselves at the thought of engaging a Probe ship, showing that they're utter cowards compared to Kirk, Picard and Sisko's crews?

Last edited by Anwar; December 31 2011 at 02:51 AM.
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Old December 31 2011, 04:54 AM   #415
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Clearly you're fanwanking your way around 28 pages of crap in here, I won't be coming in again. I'm only interested in people being somewhat realistic with the show and honest with themselves. Go on believing what you want.
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Old December 31 2011, 10:13 AM   #416
AFEK ESLCAFE W
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Some fans just like to Borg-wank themselves, so let them be.
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Old December 31 2011, 05:26 PM   #417
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

"Borg-wank" is when the fandom keep pumping the Borg up to be some ultra-threat, when they were never meant to be in the first place. The Borg ARE NOT Galactic Enemy No.1, nor were they ever meant to be.
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Old January 2 2012, 07:14 AM   #418
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
"Borg-wank" is when the fandom keep pumping the Borg up to be some ultra-threat, when they were never meant to be in the first place. The Borg ARE NOT Galactic Enemy No.1, nor were they ever meant to be.
BINGO!!!
I call it "The Boba Fett syndrome"


Frankly I find it laugh out loud funny that you're being called clueless by someone with no understanding of the word "tactical".

Guy's definition as correct( as is Anwar's) , tactics isn't about power. Tactics is another word for sfratagy and making major strikes while using the least amount of energy and resources. This why the Borg only send one Cube to Earth and use other ideas like Locutus or time travel as well.
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Last edited by exodus; January 2 2012 at 10:37 AM.
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Old January 2 2012, 07:32 AM   #419
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Duelling fanwankers would be a horrifying Youtube clip.
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Old January 2 2012, 07:54 AM   #420
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Duelling fanwankers would be a horrifying Youtube clip.
It's might be a hit on Xtube though.
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