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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 27 2011, 09:33 PM   #391
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

A Federation colony ship (mentioned in Ensigns of command could carry 200,000 people.) is much larger than a Galaxy Class Starship... I wonder which is faster?
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Old December 28 2011, 06:39 AM   #392
AFEK ESLCAFE W
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
A Federation colony ship (mentioned in Ensigns of command could carry 200,000 people.) is much larger than a Galaxy Class Starship... I wonder which is faster?
In space weight does not matter, but what does this have to do with the Borg?
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Old December 28 2011, 07:56 AM   #393
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Warp geometry and power consumption. Shield battery retention. Phaser coil reserves. Etc etc.

Bigger ships need more power to do just about anything.

Monumentally bigger ships then need monumentally more amounts of power to "do just about anything" as potently as smaller ships.

A tactical ship is a ship that zips form one mission to the next doing odd jobs quickly as need be, and then move onto the next mission. Like we suspect was the idea behind Voyagers design.

The federation at the beginning of TNG can Build warships 20 times the size of the Enterprise but it chose not to, because it wasn't a good idea. They would have been too slow or gas hogs or most likely both, and then you have to wonder how well the shields would work in a firefight trying to cover 20 times the surface area? And really if they had enough surface area for another 40 phaser arrays, they'd be fools not to use it, and if they did have forty more phaser arrays than a galaxy class ship, imagine the resources and staff that that would take to maintain?

The job of an assimilation cube is to process thousands, tens of thousands of cities into raw resources and induct billions of individuals into the collective and then find assignments for all those new drones throughout the collective.

Not to actually strip a planet and move on, but to turn a planet Borg, building new factories and server farms and transwarp radio antenna relays to extend the collective influence...

Tactical cubes are smaller than Assimilation Cubes like the Galaxy Class Starships are smaller than Federation colony ships because they are a more efficient design. Faster engines, stronger shields and more powerful weapons etc for a relative expense of energy.

That's logical right?
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; December 28 2011 at 08:23 AM.
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Old December 28 2011, 12:36 PM   #394
AFEK ESLCAFE W
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Right.
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Old December 28 2011, 01:05 PM   #395
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Voyager didnt weaken the Borg, First Contact weakened the Borg. Basically, after that movie the point of the borg became less what they represented, and more what they did. Up until then the main point of the borg was to test Picard and the enterprise crew in kind of a moral situation. Not being able to negotiate (what Picard does best), Riker having to make his decision at the end of BOBW, what to do about Hugh etc. Until that point they were essentially an abstract concept, after this they just became basic run of the mill bad guys. A bunch of aliens under the leadership of one onscreen character who told them what to do, not really any different from other trek enemies.

Making the borg queen weakened the borg as a concept, because it took away the essential element of what they were, and after that they just became something you could tamper with to meet the requirements of the story. This wasnt Voyagers fault, it was First Contacts fault.
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Old December 28 2011, 01:30 PM   #396
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

But retroactively the Queen was at First Contact, and if Picard tried harder to figure out that she existed, he could have negotiated with the Queen, but she wouldn't do that until after he was "in love" with her.

They had bad intel.

Guinin lied.

The Elurians told Starfleet about the Borg, and about the Queen 80 years earlier, but she chose to tell Picard otherwise in Q Who for some reaosn other than what Picard might have told her to say in Times Arrow to complet yet another time loop.
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Old December 28 2011, 05:06 PM   #397
TheLobes
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guinan didnt lie. Shes a fictional character, and when Q-Who was being written the borg were different than what they eventually became. Why people insist on looking at this stuff like its real is beyond me.
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Old December 28 2011, 07:29 PM   #398
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

TheLobes wrote: View Post
Guinan didnt lie. Shes a fictional character, and when Q-Who was being written the borg were different than what they eventually became. Why people insist on looking at this stuff like its real is beyond me.
We could also say that the queen was invented by the Collective to try and specifically deal with Humanity... or at least use her as a 'test run' (one that would end with 'Endgame' - I kinda like the thought that the Collective decided to never create a 'queen' again because it was essentially one giant failure of an experiment).


When you think about it... what Troi initially stated about the Borg was how they were best described - they don't have a single leader (one that is prone to making mistakes).

The Collective could certainly be used occasionally to present a real threat to the Feds... and I'm not saying the latter shouldn't be able to offer resistance - after all, they can be beaten, but given their very 'nature', they wouldn't stop coming, and they could be used in a way that they are 'toying' with the Federation (and other species) and just are using them for technological advancements - though I kinda find it 'limiting' that the collective is incapable of inventing new technologies - it sort of goes against what they accomplished, because they WERE able to mix and mash a bunch of alien technologies into one.
It could be used for some great story telling.
I don't particularly enjoy how the Destiny novels portrayed the Collective as overly emotional... that sort of perception goes against how they were initially portrayed.
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Old December 28 2011, 08:43 PM   #399
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Voyager didn't weaken the BORG... BOBW's did the minute Picard said the word..."Sleep".

That weakness was compounded when the Borg never sent a followup cube with its sleep function disabled to whip the Federation's collective backside.

There's canon and then there's just story development... kind of like how Superman could "Leap tall buildings in a single bound" before his creators realized it was cooler if he could just fly.

Like how TNG's Trill love story with Dr Crusher was "sad" because she couldn't accept her Trill male lover in a female host body, but by DS9 the Trill love story was sad because the Female Dax and the female scientist couldn't get together because associations with former lovers was taboo.

I like to cut our writers a little slack.
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Old December 28 2011, 08:50 PM   #400
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Any villian in any series can suffer decay if over-rused.
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Old December 28 2011, 11:29 PM   #401
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Deks wrote: View Post
TheLobes wrote: View Post
Guinan didnt lie. Shes a fictional character, and when Q-Who was being written the borg were different than what they eventually became. Why people insist on looking at this stuff like its real is beyond me.
We could also say that the queen was invented by the Collective to try and specifically deal with Humanity... or at least use her as a 'test run' (one that would end with 'Endgame' - I kinda like the thought that the Collective decided to never create a 'queen' again because it was essentially one giant failure of an experiment).

But the Hanson's and Starfleet knew all about the Queen well before Picard ran into his first cube, by a decade at least!

Humanity had nothing to do with her "invention".

"Fictional Character"?

That's quitters talk lobes.

Besides, I framed my bollocks by saying "retroactively" which I really really didn't have to do.

Haven't you read 1984?
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Old December 29 2011, 03:11 AM   #402
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Voyager didn't weaken the BORG... BOBW's did the minute Picard said the word..."Sleep".

That weakness was compounded when the Borg never sent a followup cube with its sleep function disabled to whip the Federation's collective backside.

There's canon and then there's just story development... kind of like how Superman could "Leap tall buildings in a single bound" before his creators realized it was cooler if he could just fly.

Like how TNG's Trill love story with Dr Crusher was "sad" because she couldn't accept her Trill male lover in a female host body, but by DS9 the Trill love story was sad because the Female Dax and the female scientist couldn't get together because associations with former lovers was taboo.

I like to cut our writers a little slack.
Great post.
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Old December 29 2011, 07:59 PM   #403
Ian Keldon
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

AFEK ESLCAFE W wrote: View Post
In space weight does not matter,
Weight does not, but mass does. Moving more mass takes more energy, and a larger passenger capacity generally means a larger, more massive ship.
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Old December 30 2011, 10:03 AM   #404
Deks
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Deks wrote: View Post
TheLobes wrote: View Post
Guinan didnt lie. Shes a fictional character, and when Q-Who was being written the borg were different than what they eventually became. Why people insist on looking at this stuff like its real is beyond me.
We could also say that the queen was invented by the Collective to try and specifically deal with Humanity... or at least use her as a 'test run' (one that would end with 'Endgame' - I kinda like the thought that the Collective decided to never create a 'queen' again because it was essentially one giant failure of an experiment).

But the Hanson's and Starfleet knew all about the Queen well before Picard ran into his first cube, by a decade at least!

Humanity had nothing to do with her "invention".

"Fictional Character"?

That's quitters talk lobes.

Besides, I framed my bollocks by saying "retroactively" which I really really didn't have to do.

Haven't you read 1984?
Ah... but the Queen was first seen in FC.
The debris from the sphere which traveled back in time were recovered by SF in Archer's time.
Therefore, the queen could have been made after the Collective received the transmission from the drones in 'regeneration'.
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Old December 30 2011, 10:48 AM   #405
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

This thread really won't die huh. All I'm gonna say is that Voyager taking on the Borg tactical cube was absurd.
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