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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 24 2011, 04:34 PM   #616
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
To be fair, we can't really know what might have happened in the larger Trekverse as a result of the episode...it's not as though we got a window into the Federation council at this point.
Which is something that has always been a huge pet peeve for me - we never see the high level political/diplomatic dealings of any of the Trek shows. I would have loved to see some scenes set in the Federation Council Chamber or the Bajoran Chamber of Ministers.

Of course, the reason is that our main heroes tend to be "low" ranking members of the military and not politicians who have access to those power corridors. So, we would have to focus on new characters to carry those scenes. So, it's understandable why we never saw things like that.

But DS9 was the one show were they could have showed some scenes like that. I mean, Sisko is the Emissary of the Prophets, a man who regularly deals with the highest levels of the Bajoran government. They could have worked something in.
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Old December 24 2011, 05:28 PM   #617
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

desultoryd wrote: View Post
One request - I realize that I'm an anomaly, I don't want to impede your discussions - and I'd rather risk spoiling what happens than not continuing to read the reviews... but I had no idea that the cardassians side with the dominion until I read it here... maybe a shout out to avert my gaze next time something like that comes up?
I do try and avoid specific spoilers about future events and refer to them in general terms because I know that Shatnertage reads this thread and don't want to give away too much for his mostly first-viewing. It sucks that you were spoiled about the Cardassia thing though, that was probably my favourite twist in the show because it was unexpected but made a lot of sense when you thought about it.


The Jem'Hadar (****½)

ERIS: You have no idea what's begun here.
I don't think that anyone watching the show when this episode first aired understood just how true that statement was. Hell, I don't even think the writers knew. The Dominion caused interstellar wars involving five Alpha Quadrant powers, they caused the near-destruction of one of those powers, friends became foes and foes became friends, attacks were launched on Earth and other important Federation worlds, and there was a re-examination of the principles that the Federation was founded on. Star Trek had tried to introduce new villains in the past, from the successful introduction of the Borg to the failed introduction of the Ferengi, but none of them had the same long-term impact of the Dominion. The Borg may be more famous, but the Dominion managed to provide more of a sustained threat than the Borg ever did.

How well does this episode work as an introduction for the Dominion? I honestly can't say because I missed it when it first aired and by the time I saw it I already knew a whole bunch about the Dominion. But I like the basic concept of it, I like that a comical family camping trip turns into one of the biggest interstellar incidents of the age. I liked the mixture of comic elements with serious drama, such as Jake and Nog trying to fly a runabout while larger events are unfolding around them. The episode also has it's thoughtful moments, such as Quark's little speech about the barbarity of humans. It's a fun adventure with established characters that play off of one another's traits. There is that anachronism about the Vorta's telekinetic powers, but I suppose it's not out of the question that the Dominion were using smoke and mirrors to make themselves seem more impressive and confuse their new enemy.

On it's own, the episode might be in the 7 or 8 out of 10 range, but that score is inflated by how the episode made me feel. I've been rewatching DS9 for over two months now and I've been enjoying it for the most part, but this episode made me realise that a number of elements have been missing all along. I'm not just talking about the Dominion but other things such as the Defiant, and even small things such as DS9's wardroom. I know that those two things weren't in this episode, but they'll be showing up soon and that makes me feel good. This episode isn't just a finale for the second season, this is a finale for the first stage of DS9, the pre-Dominion era. I think it does very well in that regard.
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Old December 24 2011, 06:02 PM   #618
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

There isn't much I can say about this episode that you haven't already said. I love how the beginning of the episode misleads us into thinking it will be a bit of a romp, and I love how swiftly the episode turns into something much different.

When the big fight begins and Odyssey is taking a pounding I really thought the ship might be destroyed and thought, "Holy crap, they're going to blow up a Galaxy-class." Then the ship starts turning to retreat (a great sequence by the way...I'm not sure the sheer mass of the ship has ever been portrayed better) and I thought, "Oh, so they'll escape, but having learned not to screw around with the Jem'hadar." And then...well, we all know what happens next, and I don't think we'd ever seen such a display of naked petty aggression to that point in Trek history.

Yeah, you can imagine what it was like knowing we wouldn't get any new DS9 for several months.

I don't think it would be at all inappropriate to call this the Q Who? of DS9.
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Old December 24 2011, 06:25 PM   #619
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Eris: You have no idea what's begun here.
Ah, Eris. Shame we never saw her again. Yes, her telekinetic powers don't make much sense given what we've seen of other Vorta (not to mention the fact that she did nothing to acknowledge Odo as a Founder), but you can always fanwank that kind of stuff away. Definitely a great episode, and the end of DS9's pre-Dominion era. I really loved the build-up to the full Dominion reveal. We get whispers about them here and there - the first mention being in a relatively insignificant Ferengi-centric episode (I always loved that) - and then an episode like this, which reveals much more, but how much of what we learn is true? We'll find out next season! At the time, I could hardly wait.
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Old December 24 2011, 07:14 PM   #620
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Damn, this season really did end with a strong stretch, didn't it?

The Jem'Hadar
is a very good introduction to the Dominion proper. I love that we don't get the full story of what the Dominion is and how all the races play off each other here. That stuff won't come until later - in the case of Vorta, much later. This episode merely gives us our introduction to the Dominion, much like Q Who gave us our introduction to the Borg only to have more information on them revealed later.

And Quark's little speech about Humans and Ferengis is definitely the high point of the episode for me. He glosses over many of his society's flaws, but he does make some damn good points.
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Old December 24 2011, 09:41 PM   #621
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

All I can say is that the fun beings! The Jem'Hadar and The Search rather nicely sets things up, but folks you'll find that season 3 flounders a bit half way through, and it is only saved by one episode The Die is Cast. Not giving away spoilers but it develops upon everything that The Jem'Hadar and The Search explored and revealed.

The three most crucial episodes of DS9, that make it so awesome in terms of the general plot have to be The Jem'Hadar, The Die is Cast and The Way of the Warrior. Without those episodes DS9 would have been dead by season 3, and definitely by season 4.

This may sound odd, but though The Jem'Hadar finally showed us the Dominion, it was The Die is Cast that was the real big step. The Jem'Hadar brought us the Dominion and the threat it poses. But The Die is Cast showed us some of the consequences to the Alpha Quadrant, plus started the chain of events that lead to what was inevitable... WAR!
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Old December 24 2011, 10:01 PM   #622
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

This pretty much sums up my feelings on "The Jem'Hadar."

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Old December 25 2011, 01:13 AM   #623
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I do try and avoid specific spoilers about future events and refer to them in general terms because I know that Shatnertage reads this thread and don't want to give away too much for his mostly first-viewing.
Thanks!

And I liked this episode, too.

It seems like telepathy is a power that the writers like to give and take away. The Vorta, Troi in "Encounter at Farpoint," and probably a few others I've forgotten.
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Old December 25 2011, 03:13 AM   #624
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To nitpick a bit, I don't think Troi was ever meant to be a telepath, but they did tone down how she seemed to react to others' feelings. Given how silly it seemed in EAF, I don't blame them.

As for the Vorta, Eris was telekinetic, not telepathic, I believe. We could rationalize that some Vorta do have these powers, but the majority don't (fears of a Vorta uprising?). We simply never saw the telekinetic ones again.
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Old December 25 2011, 03:27 AM   #625
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
The three most crucial episodes of DS9, that make it so awesome in terms of the general plot have to be The Jem'Hadar, The Die is Cast and The Way of the Warrior. Without those episodes DS9 would have been dead by season 3, and definitely by season 4.
Dead how exactly? It was hardly floundering in the ratings.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:29 AM   #626
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
To nitpick a bit, I don't think Troi was ever meant to be a telepath, but they did tone down how she seemed to react to others' feelings. Given how silly it seemed in EAF, I don't blame them.
Actually, Troi was meant to be telepathic with at least Riker - remember, they could read each others' thoughts. But thank God they toned that all down.
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Old December 25 2011, 04:19 PM   #627
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. That "conversation" in the turbolift.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:02 PM   #628
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

In fact, wasn't it just that one "conversation" in Encounter at Farpoint?
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Old December 27 2011, 10:20 AM   #629
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Woot! Just watched the three-part discovery of the Dominion story arc! Great stuff, and I'm just waiting for TheGodBen to start reviewing The Search parts 1 and 2.
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Old December 28 2011, 04:21 AM   #630
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[QUOTE=TheGodBen;5477128]
desultoryd wrote: View Post
, but that score is inflated by how the episode made me feel. I've been rewatching DS9 for over two months now and I've been enjoying it for the most part, but this episode made me realise that a number of elements have been missing all along. I'm not just talking about the Dominion but other things such as the Defiant, and even small things such as DS9's wardroom. I know that those two things weren't in this episode, but they'll be showing up soon and that makes me feel good.
I love that you "inflate" your score on feelings. Keep up the awesome reviews.
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