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Old December 24 2011, 06:13 AM   #151
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Just watched another two episodes.

Lifesigns: This episode developed the Doctor's love life, showed us a different side of the Vidians, and it set up Tom Paris' leaving Voyager in the next episode. All in all this was a fine episode, although it did drag at times.
5/10
I thought it was one of the finest romantic episodes Trek has ever done. There was so much depth to the story. On one hand we had a tragic figure in Denara resigned to an early death and social pariah status and on the other, a new kind of life discovering what it means to love.
I don't see how they could have done it any better, 5/10 seems so harsh for an episode was pretty much the best it could be.

8/10: This is the first episode to get an 8 from me, making it the second best episode of Voyager so far, behind Alliances which I gave a 9.
You sure do seem to be a fan of the Kazons/arcs...don't get too attached

RE: "The First Duty" debate. I'd hate to be friends with any of you lot! Willing to throw your friends under the bus just to soothe your conscience, absolutely frightening.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:46 PM   #152
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Re: Does It Get Better???

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Just watched another two episodes.

Lifesigns: This episode developed the Doctor's love life, showed us a different side of the Vidians, and it set up Tom Paris' leaving Voyager in the next episode. All in all this was a fine episode, although it did drag at times.
5/10
I thought it was one of the finest romantic episodes Trek has ever done. There was so much depth to the story. On one hand we had a tragic figure in Denara resigned to an early death and social pariah status and on the other, a new kind of life discovering what it means to love.
I don't see how they could have done it any better, 5/10 seems so harsh for an episode was pretty much the best it could be.
I'm not sure how it could have been better. I guess it just didn't hold a lot of appeal to me, that's all. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a fine episode, just not one of the best episodes ever.


You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
You sure do seem to be a fan of the Kazons/arcs...don't get too attached
Somehow that doesn't make me very optimistic for the future of Voyager. This entire Kazon arc has been terrific. I really don't want it to end. Please no spoilers though about when it will end.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:52 PM   #153
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Well let's just say the writers/producers/executives considered the Kazon arc to be a failure and they took Janeway's opinion seen in "Alliances" on tha matter"
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Old December 24 2011, 05:08 PM   #154
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Re: Does It Get Better???

What did fans think about the Kazon arc at the time? Was it unpopular? If so, is it still unpopular? If that's the case, then I am in the minority on this one.
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Old December 24 2011, 05:49 PM   #155
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I thought the Seska elements were kind of fun in and of themselves but as time went on they started to feel a bit hackneyed.

As for the Kazon...without Seska they seem perilously close to second-rate Klingons. I hoped the fact that there were various clans would somehow prove relevant, but ultimately little came of it.

Also, given the fact that Voyager is theoretically trying to high-tail it out of the DQ, that they encountered the Kazon for so long seemed increasingly improbable.
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Old December 24 2011, 08:01 PM   #156
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
What did fans think about the Kazon arc at the time? Was it unpopular? If so, is it still unpopular? If that's the case, then I am in the minority on this one.
From what I've gathered from forums, the arc was very unpopular** (oops, originally wrote popular but meant unpopular lol). Michael Piller defended the Kazon and the Kazon arc (and it was really his baby) but the other writers didn't like it and he said in one interview that even many of his friends said they didn't like it.

Looking back, I think the Kazon episodes are actually some of the strongest of those first couple of seasons and I appreciated it as Voyager's only real attempt at a proper arc but the fact that Voyager still maintained its high warp ability but kept bumping into the same ones just irks me. They should have given some reason for it.
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Old December 24 2011, 08:06 PM   #157
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I like the Kazon arc and the episodes that have to do with them. I just didn't like the design of the Kazon species. They look like they have afros with fish sticking out of them.
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Old December 25 2011, 03:40 AM   #158
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
What did fans think about the Kazon arc at the time? Was it unpopular? If so, is it still unpopular? If that's the case, then I am in the minority on this one.
Yes.
Many fans felt two seasons in Kazon space was too long.
It brought too many questions about how such a race could claim territory over so much space. Due to it you'll notice in future episodes Voyager doesn't spend as much time fleshing out many of the other aliens species you meet......except if they're nomadic(Hirogen) or conquers(Borg), who would be found roaming outside their space.

My personal issues with the Kazon was, they weren't violent enough. For a species that was so supposedly disgruntled, in two seasons they never killed one Voyager crewmen. Not one. For a group that wanted Voyager so badly, why not just start killing off the crew at each encounter? Fans compare the Kazon to Klingons but Klingons would have murdered off the crew. The Kazon didn't work because they failed to prove they were an actual threat.
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Old December 25 2011, 03:45 AM   #159
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I think the Kazon arc would have been better received if
a- The Kazon hadn't looked so silly and weren't portrayed as being so useless.
b- Either shortening the span of the episodes to make it more realistic than Voyager would keep encountering them or -
b2 - Have the Voyager be unable to travel at high warp for some reason, perhaps damaged warp engines they're unable to fix without help from a similarly advanced society. Of course that would require the replicators not to be magic which is really one of the main improvements the show should have made in general - complicated parts should not be able to be made on the ship.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:56 AM   #160
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Re: Does It Get Better???

It's pretty damning that other shows can get away with similar arcs without anyone batting an eyelash:

1) In NuBSG no one cares that the Cylons kept showing up even though Galactica's method of FTL put even more distance between them and the Cylons than VOY's Warp Drive did for them and the Kazon.

2) In Farscape no one cares the Peacekeepers kept showing up.

But in VOY, if ANY aliens species showed up more than once of twice there was Hell to pay.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:59 AM   #161
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Interesting points about the Kazon. I have found it odd that Voyager continues to encounter them despite the fact that they are headed home. Unless the Kazon want to go home with them?

Since it's Christmas Eve I decided to watch the Polar Express. But, afterwards I just couldn't help myself, so I watched another episode of Voyager.

Deadlock: A solid parallel universe episode with some exciting and also genuinely sad moments; the death of Kim at the beginning, the death of the baby, seeing Voyager torn apart, seeing the Vidiians sweep through the other Voyager and take down everyone in their path, the self destruction of the other Voyager.
All in all a solid episode, although not exceptional. It felt a little too much like a reset button episode since Kim and the baby didn't really die, and by the end of the episode the damaged Voyager was back in tip top shape as if nothing had happened. Not a major complaint, but worth noting.
7/10
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Old December 25 2011, 06:02 AM   #162
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Re: Does It Get Better???

Anwar wrote: View Post
It's pretty damning that other shows can get away with similar arcs without anyone batting an eyelash:

1) In NuBSG no one cares that the Cylons kept showing up even though Galactica's method of FTL put even more distance between them and the Cylons than VOY's Warp Drive did for them and the Kazon.

2) In Farscape no one cares the Peacekeepers kept showing up.

But in VOY, if ANY aliens species showed up more than once of twice there was Hell to pay.
I know what you mean. While it is strange that the Kazon keep appearing, it's not something that's bothering me at all. Why complain if the episodes are entertaining?
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Old December 25 2011, 11:31 AM   #163
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Re: Does It Get Better???

I love me some "Deadlock", it did ship destruction and exploding consoles better than any other episode - I loved that sound effect when the proton burst is coming, really requires listening with headphones though haha. It definitely did feel resetty and the end mars the episode a little bit - why is Kim so nonchalant about the traumatic experience he just went through? Well probably because Wang can't act...

Regarding BSG and the Cylons showing up - the BSG ships didn't travel as wide a distance as warp-ships, nowhere near as much. And they actually had the technology to keep up if required and were MORE advanced than the humans. It seemed like the Kazon ships probably couldn't go faster than warp 5 given their technology but for some reason can keep up with Voyager?
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Old December 26 2011, 03:16 PM   #164
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Re: Does It Get Better???

No-one should under-estimate the value of 'Deadlock' since the writers put enough care into it to make it a solid episode. The best parts is where both B'Elannas and Janeways are trying to communicate with their radio and Janeway jumps through and they communicate directly to each other. The Bidiians are awfully smart but they are not smart enough to leave us alone.
The Kazons simply made the ships go fast the same as other races that get there first. I think them and their first maj's are cool studs and they don't think about warp factor.
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Old December 26 2011, 05:08 PM   #165
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Re: Does It Get Better???

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
It's pretty damning that other shows can get away with similar arcs without anyone batting an eyelash:

1) In NuBSG no one cares that the Cylons kept showing up even though Galactica's method of FTL put even more distance between them and the Cylons than VOY's Warp Drive did for them and the Kazon.

2) In Farscape no one cares the Peacekeepers kept showing up.

But in VOY, if ANY aliens species showed up more than once of twice there was Hell to pay.
I know what you mean. While it is strange that the Kazon keep appearing, it's not something that's bothering me at all. Why complain if the episodes are entertaining?
My sentiments exactly.
However....
Voyager was the only ship in that quaderant with a Federation warp signal, so it was easy to track. There was an ep. where Seska mentions this as does Janeway when looking for lost shuttles.
Season 3s "Distant Origin" shows another way to track them.
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Last edited by exodus; December 26 2011 at 05:36 PM.
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