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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 25 2011, 04:48 AM   #16
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Racist Vulcans

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Vulcans in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" were not racists. The Vulcan stated his physical superiority in a cold and logical manner, and what angered Sisko the most was the fact that he was right about it. The Vulcan was amused by Sisko's anger and competitiveness and studied him basically.
Solok displayed too much emotion to be considered a true Vulcan. Amusement and smugness are still emotions.

Besides: It is illogical to assert racial superiority. True, some Vulcans may be stronger than some humans, but the reverse is also surely true. There are weak Vulcans, and strong humans. An entire species can't be said to have the same level of physical strength.

I think it is entirely plausible to simply assume Solok is racist and dislikes humans. We've seen it before, of course. Not just in ENT, but also ST XI as well (the Vulcan Science Minister). Not all Vulcan characters in Trek have been so blatantly prejudiced, of course. Spock, T'Pol and Tuvok, for example, have all pointed out their differences with humans, but did not do so in such a flat-out bigoted fashion as Solok did.

And yes, the T'Kumbra (Solok's ship) DID have a crew made up entirely of Vulcans. This was confirmed in dialogue in the episode, and of course, there was Solok's attitude. Would you expect Solok to WANT any human crewmembers to be serving under his command, after all? Or, conversely, would you (as a human) want to serve with somebody like him?
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Old December 25 2011, 07:22 AM   #17
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Racist Vulcans

T'Pol was pretty bigoted, as I recall. As far as Spock and Tuvok, I think they hid it a little better, but they were both still arrogant and abrasive, showing a lack of willingness to accommodate the social graces of others.

At least...Spock was in his earlier years. I think it was pretty clear by the movie era that he'd mellowed. And in Trek XI, his behavior actually looked for the first time like a clear cross between human and Vulcan behavior, like he'd fully accepted both sides of him.
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Old December 25 2011, 07:44 AM   #18
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Re: Racist Vulcans

I never thought T'Pol was openly bigoted or racist. She expressed her reservations about humanity in a manner that really WAS logical. More so than Solok ever was, at any rate. Same goes for Spock and Tuvok.

Solok, on the other hand, openly gloated about supposed Vulcan superiority.
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Old December 25 2011, 08:08 AM   #19
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Agreed. T'Pol wasn't racist, she just made assumptions about humans that were later shown to be in error. She became a valued member of the crew, and trusted her human Captain implicitly.

Solok was definitely racist. It was all over his face, in his body language, he seriously disliked and was disdainful of humans for emotional reasons.
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Old December 25 2011, 03:54 PM   #20
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Re: Racist Vulcans

This reminds me of one of my favorite lines ever spoken in all of Trek: Spock's final "Live long and prosper" to the Vulcan Science Council in ST XI. I love how utterly PISSED he sounds.
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Old December 25 2011, 04:24 PM   #21
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Well, let's be fair here: Spock was a racist and a hypocrite in TOS' TV series; he went on about all of humanity's failings and flaws like they were the worst bastards in space despite constantly encountering beings who were worse, and he kept forgetting that the Vulcans were far worse than humanity EVER was in their past.

It wasn't until TMP that he realized that his general attitude towards things was wrong.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:07 PM   #22
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Re: Racist Vulcans

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Vulcans are arrogant, not racist. I'm sure serving on a ship full of ONLY Vulcans would just make things worse.

Frankly, I want to know who allowed a Starfleet ship to have an all-Vulcan crew. What possible purpose could that serve?
Physical comfort levels could have something to do with it. Andorians come from an ice world and Vulcans come from a desert climate. Adjusting common areas of the ship to accommodate both extremes would be nearly impossible.
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Old December 25 2011, 10:30 PM   #23
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
This reminds me of one of my favorite lines ever spoken in all of Trek: Spock's final "Live long and prosper" to the Vulcan Science Council in ST XI. I love how utterly PISSED he sounds.
I know!!!

People cheered in the theater when he did that, because it was so clear that even though he didn't say it, what he was really saying was, "FUCK OFF."
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Old December 25 2011, 10:30 PM   #24
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, let's be fair here: Spock was a racist and a hypocrite in TOS' TV series; he went on about all of humanity's failings and flaws like they were the worst bastards in space despite constantly encountering beings who were worse, and he kept forgetting that the Vulcans were far worse than humanity EVER was in their past.

It wasn't until TMP that he realized that his general attitude towards things was wrong.
Thank you. Exactly the point I made upthread.
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Old December 25 2011, 11:30 PM   #25
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Re: Racist Vulcans

To be fair, the Vulcans have always been portrayed as arrogant and smug in the belief of their own superiority. Even Spock was quick to point out humanity's failings and conveniently forgot about the bloody past of Vulcan. And don't even get me started on T'Pring! And what of Sarek, who stopped talking to his son for years because he didn't follow Vulcan tradition?
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Old December 25 2011, 11:47 PM   #26
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Re: Racist Vulcans

We are Judging Solok by human values. No wonder Vulcans look at us inferior Hew-mons with such distaste. Are we any better to judge them?
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Old December 26 2011, 01:50 AM   #27
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Humans never pretended to be totally logical beings who act without emotion. Vulcans constantly do. That alone holds them to a higher standard.

Arrogance, smugness, claims of racial superiority...a logical species should not have those traits. Because they are inherently emotional.
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Old December 26 2011, 02:43 AM   #28
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And yes, the T'Kumbra (Solok's ship) DID have a crew made up entirely of Vulcans. This was confirmed in dialogue in the episode...
...thank you for correcting me on this point...
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Old December 26 2011, 05:41 AM   #29
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Re: Racist Vulcans

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Usually, a cold logical analysis evokes anger. Just try discussing with Christopher Bennett while having a different opinion than he has. He will academically beat you up and you will get so angry that he is right.
Such an assumption is--for lack of a better word--illogical.

See, having a "reasoned tone" hardly corresponds with "academically beating you up". It often means mere clever demagoguery, complete with projecting the attitude that "you're an idiot if you don't agree." In a word, "smugness".

That's the attitude Solok expressed--the facts of his argument were of no consequence, so long as he said the audacious things he did (to the effect that Vulcans are, in effect, a Master Race) with a tone of, "and if you disagree with me, than you, sir, are decidedly lacking in logical reasoning."
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Old December 26 2011, 05:44 AM   #30
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Re: Racist Vulcans

Solarbaby wrote: View Post
We are Judging Solok by human values. No wonder Vulcans look at us inferior Hew-mons with such distaste. Are we any better to judge them?
Well, Surak would seem to think we have a point...as his interaction with Archer would seem to indicate.
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