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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 23 2011, 06:03 PM   #601
TheGodBen
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Maybe when Bareil dropped out it was taken as a hint from the Prophets that Bareil's platform wasn't the "correct" one at present, even if his supporters wanted it to be?
That's a good explanation, but I guess I wanted something like that in the episode itself. Certain things in stories are meant to be ambiguous and debated by fans, but in this case I feel like as if they rushed the conclusion in order to make Winn the Kai without bothering to explain it properly.

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Tribunal (****)

O'Brien hasn't had the best year, has he? First he nearly died from that toxic combine harvester, then he was kidnapped and had his personality transferred into a murderous replicant, and worst of all is that he became friends with Dr Bashir. He finally decided to take a holiday, his first in five years, and he ended up abducted by a foreign government, stripped naked, had his tooth pulled out, and was then sentenced to execution. He must have done something really bad in a past life to deserve all this.

I enjoyed this episode for the pageantry of the Cardassian legal system, which is fitting as that's all that the Cardassian legal system is, a pageant. This isn't a trial, it's a show aimed at the Cardassians people, rather like Judge Judy or Mock Trial with J Reinhold. Justice doesn't matter, at no point do any of the Cardassians involved in the trial appeal to O'Brien's sense of justice, all they care about is obedience and service to the state, an emotional appeal that was hardly going to work on O'Brien. No, the trial doesn't matter, O'Brien is guilty, and nothing he or Odo can say will change anything. I especially liked Conservator Kovat. At the beginning you feel that he may be an honest lawyer that has been broken by the system but will stand up for justice in the end, sort of like that Klingon lawyer in Enterprise, but I liked that he didn't really give a crap and was perfectly happy working within the system he believed in.

The plot of the episode doesn't really matter, we always knew that O'Brien was innocent and would end up being freed by the end of the episode. It's nice that the Maquis have come back into play once again, and the resolution to the trial was rushed and something of a deus ex machina, but those things don't really impact my enjoyment of the episode. When you get down to it, the core of this episode isn't even the trial but the Cardassian mindset, with everything from the language used at the trial down to the gloomy lighting in the courtroom reflecting their personalities. It's a strange form of style over substance that works because of how intriguing the Cardassians are and how the episode continues to develop their race.

And let's not forget the best part of this episode; another delicious peek at O'Brien's flabby moobs.
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Old December 23 2011, 07:05 PM   #602
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
And let's not forget the best part of this episode; another delicious peek at O'Brien's flabby moobs.
That's just the one thing missing from The Next Generation.
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Old December 23 2011, 07:47 PM   #603
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I didn't know that the Americans invented the English alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjami...netic_alphabet




Tribunal is indeed very much style over substance, but I agree that it's style that works very well. It clearly shows just what the Cardassian mindset truly is - something that has been hinted at over and over up until now. However, if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time it's explicitly thrown in our faces like this.

It's also important that this episode really sets the stage, psychologically speaking, for all future episodes showcasing the Cardassians. For example, their blind obedience to the state shows why they would be so likely to join sides with the Dominion.
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Old December 23 2011, 08:09 PM   #604
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Isn't this also the first time we get to see the surface of Cardassia with its ever-present monitors?

The tooth-pulling makes me wince every time.
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Old December 23 2011, 08:39 PM   #605
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Oh my. I've missed Crossover, The Collaborator and Tribunal, which are some of my favourite episodes of the season. Crossover was an excellent episode, and it's easy to see why the writers decided to keep on doing Mirror Universe episodes. Shattered Mirror is about where they should have stopped though. Intendent Kira is a very intriguing character!

I really enjoyed watching The Collaborator. It was fun seeing Kai Opaka again, even if only as a Prophet. Winn and Bareil duking it out on the political stage was very interesting to me, and I probably liked it more than you did.

Tribunal is another very good episode, and is yet another torture O'Brien episode. One of DS9's greatest missed opportunites was not having his moobs pulled until he cried! Colm Meany is brilliant as always, and seeing the Cardassian judicial system as its 'best' is fun to watch.

I've had such a busy week at work, I missed this thread. Off for drinkies now tonight to start off the Christmas celebrations!
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Old December 23 2011, 10:08 PM   #606
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It also came out of that one line of Dukat's in The Maquis, about how the verdict was always the same.

Although it's been a while since I've seen it, I love Tribunal. Our mindset is so focused on the idea of 'fair trial,' 'jury of peers,' 'innocent until proven guilty...' And all of that is thrown out the window in an alien trial.

I've always loved Odo's 'You won' line, and the reaction of the Cardassian lawyer.
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Old December 23 2011, 10:14 PM   #607
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I do love the exchange between Odo and Kovat at the end:

Wh- -wh- what happened?!"
"... you won."
"...they'll kill me."

Hee!
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Old December 24 2011, 02:38 AM   #608
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The thing about "Tribunal" is that it's really funny. It's a tribute to the writers and the director that they can extract humor from such a serious subject.

The flummoxed Cardassian officials honestly had no idea how to deal with these "unreasonable humans" (Miles would not plead guilty and Keiko would not cry) and the shapeshifter who wouldn't give up.
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Old December 24 2011, 06:17 AM   #609
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm a new poster here so I'll keep this brief - (I just spent a marathon day and a half reading this whole thread - and could write volumes on what I've read). I'm a long time trek fan who never got around to watching DS9, so about a month ago I decided to watch all the seasons back to back, for the first time.

I was thrilled to find this site and even more excited to read opinions on the episodes I've watched so far (I'm currently on season4)

thank you to everyone for the insights and comments - I'm loving this series and can't believe it took me so long to try it out.

One request - I realize that I'm an anomaly, I don't want to impede your discussions - and I'd rather risk spoiling what happens than not continuing to read the reviews... but I had no idea that the cardassians side with the dominion until I read it here... maybe a shout out to avert my gaze next time something like that comes up?
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Old December 24 2011, 06:47 AM   #610
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think we've all been operating under the impression that all the readers have seen all the episodes. I'll try to watch what I say from now on.
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Old December 24 2011, 07:03 AM   #611
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Desultory--you might do better with Shatnertage's thread, then, which is more aimed at first-time viewers. TGB typically aims for those who are familiar with the series already.
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Old December 24 2011, 11:44 AM   #612
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I dunno why but Tribunal always seems like a filler episode to me. The Collaborator was great, and then we have The Jem'Hadar and then the whole tone of DS9 changes. It's like DS9 loses a lot of that TNG innocence. Don't get me wrong, Tribunal was good, but in the face of the next episode, it (Tribunal) lacks a certain punch and drive to it.

One problem with this episode is the plot ending; the Cardassians have been caught redhanded trying to scupper the treaty between them and the Federation. The Federation could use that as leverage against those spoonheads, and make alterations to the treaty. Hell they could even ask for the Volon colonies back, and threaten the Cardassians that war is not to the Cardassian Union's advantage. If that had happened, then the Maquis would have disbanded.

But the Federation seem to be rather lazy buggers, and they passed up an opportunity to do what they do best; talk and bluster for diplomatic advantage...
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Old December 24 2011, 02:37 PM   #613
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I think we've all been operating under the impression that all the readers have seen all the episodes. I'll try to watch what I say from now on.
no - if there is another thread for us neophytes then fair enough, I'll take the risk to keep enjoying this thread
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Old December 24 2011, 03:33 PM   #614
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
I dunno why but Tribunal always seems like a filler episode to me. The Collaborator was great, and then we have The Jem'Hadar and then the whole tone of DS9 changes. It's like DS9 loses a lot of that TNG innocence. Don't get me wrong, Tribunal was good, but in the face of the next episode, it (Tribunal) lacks a certain punch and drive to it.

One problem with this episode is the plot ending; the Cardassians have been caught redhanded trying to scupper the treaty between them and the Federation. The Federation could use that as leverage against those spoonheads, and make alterations to the treaty. Hell they could even ask for the Volon colonies back, and threaten the Cardassians that war is not to the Cardassian Union's advantage. If that had happened, then the Maquis would have disbanded.

But the Federation seem to be rather lazy buggers, and they passed up an opportunity to do what they do best; talk and bluster for diplomatic advantage...
I think that goes along with something SFDebris said in his reviews of The Maquis - the Federation seems intent on preserving the peace with the Cardassians at any cost, even when it means they deliberately shoot themselves in the foot. I agree, however, that it makes no sense from an in-universe perspective.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:25 PM   #615
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To be fair, we can't really know what might have happened in the larger Trekverse as a result of the episode...it's not as though we got a window into the Federation council at this point.

"The Never-Ending Sacrifice" doesn't deal with the events of this episode in particular, but does do a great job of illuminating how some of the events of DS9 felt from a Cardassian perspective.
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