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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 22 2011, 03:02 PM   #586
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I also loved Crossover, but I never got all the hate, or at least bitterness, toward the Mirror Universe.

Yeah, it's over-the-top ridiculousness, but that's the whole point. But, even with all that baggage, it still manages to give us some pretty good episodes - Resurrection being another one in my opinion because it focuses on the actual differences between the two Bareils.

Also count me as one who's sad we never saw Mirror Dukat (this µ stuff confuses and enrages my Midwestern-American sensibilities! ). It would have the perfect way to show just what an evil bastard he is underneath his charm and would have helped shut up all the fangirls out there who wanted to fuck him.
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Old December 22 2011, 03:16 PM   #587
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

What if Mirror Dukat wasn't evil? What if he was actually a nice guy pretending to be evil, just like our Dukat was evil but pretended to be a nice guy?
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Old December 22 2011, 03:46 PM   #588
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
It would have the perfect way to show just what an evil bastard he is underneath his charm and would have helped shut up all the fangirls out there who wanted to fuck him.
There were fangirls who were attracted to Dukat?

Oh god.

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Old December 22 2011, 03:57 PM   #589
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Oh yes, yes indeed!

Thankfully, I haven't run into many on this site. But, on others I've seen some go so far as to say stuff like "Well, the Occupation really wasn't that bad. I mean ONLY ten million died. That's just 200,000 per year or roughly only 550 per day."

Seriously -
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Old December 22 2011, 04:54 PM   #590
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Crossover is a five star episode for me. It's too bad that mirror Odo got killed so early in the mirror universe arc. I loved his Rules of Obedience.
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Old December 22 2011, 06:42 PM   #591
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
(this µ stuff confuses and enrages my Midwestern-American sensibilities! ).
You will submit to our superior European alphabets.


The Collaborator (***½)

Kai Winn. Kai Winn. It just rolls off the tongue, and it sounds much more natural than Vedek Winn or Kai Bareil. I bet that's the reason why they chose to have her win the election. It was a fairly ballsy thing for a Trek show to do, letting the bad guy win because her name sounded better. Okay, so maybe the real reason they did it was because it created a more interesting dynamic than having Nicey McNice win, but it was still an interesting decision that indicated some level of forethought was being put into the show. It also ups the ante for future episodes when you know that the good guys wont always emerge victorious. Thankfully, this decision paid off in future episodes as Winn becomes a more powerful antagonist.

The rest of the episode isn't bad either, we get a return to Bajoran politics, a brief exploration of the role of collaborators in Bajoran society, an emotional crisis for Kira, and even a nice little moment for Odo. I like to think that that was the moment when he first realised himself that he had feelings for Kira, that he thought they were just close friends until he was confronted by her feelings for someone else, at which point his feelings came to his attention. But that's pure conjecture and has nothing much to do with this episode.

Two things about this episode felt a little off. Firstly, there's Bareil's orb visions, because prophetic visions are a bit of a cliché. One of them would have been okay, two was pushing it, three was overkill. Poor Bareil, the "Prophets" just don't like him. First they cause him to lose the election because he wouldn't have been interesting enough, then they kill him off because he had nothing else to do. Secondly, Bareil seems like a fairly liberal guy while Winn appears very conservative, so why would his votes transfer to her? This seems to stem from the mindset of a two-party system where the idea of voting for a third-party candidate seems like a wasted vote. I suppose it's possible that when Bareil dropped out that people transferred to the next most famous name on the ballot, which happened to be Winn, but it just doesn't seem logical that those two candidates would share sections of the electorate.

But those are minor complaints in an otherwise enjoyable episode.
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Old December 22 2011, 06:42 PM   #592
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

JWD75 wrote: View Post
Crossover is a five star episode for me. It's too bad that mirror Odo got killed so early in the mirror universe arc. I loved his Rules of Obedience.
I agree. His uniform was also really awesome.
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Old December 22 2011, 07:19 PM   #593
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Secondly, Bareil seems like a fairly liberal guy while Winn appears very conservative, so why would his votes transfer to her? This seems to stem from the mindset of a two-party system where the idea of voting for a third-party candidate seems like a wasted vote. I suppose it's possible that when Bareil dropped out that people transferred to the next most famous name on the ballot, which happened to be Winn, but it just doesn't seem logical that those two candidates would share sections of the electorate.
Perhaps it stems from the fact that this is not just a straightforward political election but also a spiritual decision? So the electorate is relating to the process not only in terms of response to candidates or their own political opinions but in terms of omens, signs and hints from the Prophets, who are presumed to "know" which is the desirable outcome? Bajorans tend to come across as genuinely invested in spiritual matters, so the position of Kai probably isn't seen as just a straightforward bid for political capital. Perhaps the electorate thinks in terms of the Prophets' Will, which might conflict with Bajoran desire but can't be discarded or overlooked? Maybe when Bareil dropped out it was taken as a hint from the Prophets that Bareil's platform wasn't the "correct" one at present, even if his supporters wanted it to be? Their political leanings and opinions might not have changed, but they heeded what seemed to them like a sign and trusted that the "proper" choice, for the near-future at least, lay elsewhere. Perhaps Winn's supporters spun it in those terms too, however subtly. I guess what I'm thinking, in order to explain it, is that support may have done a bit of a 180 because it was considered wise to avoid, at least for now, the platform of the guy who dropped out for (it might be assumed) reasons relating to spiritual insight on his part, or else the Will of the Prophets? Not because Bareil supporters believe Winn is the politically correct choice, but because it appears she may be the "best" choice for whatever path the Prophets want Bajor to walk in the next few years?

That's probably far too simplistic, so I apologize, but I think maybe we should assume, given Bajoran culture and the nature of the position of Kai, that there's more going on than political expression and ideological division. Votes are probably given for other reasons too, depending on how spiritual the Bajoran truly is and how they interpret the signs and omens?
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Last edited by Deranged Nasat; December 22 2011 at 09:49 PM.
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Old December 22 2011, 07:47 PM   #594
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I actually find that a very interesting take on the matter, one that as an agnostic wouldn't generally occur to me.
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Old December 22 2011, 07:48 PM   #595
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
(this µ stuff confuses and enrages my Midwestern-American sensibilities! ).
You will submit to our superior European alphabets.
I reject your alphabet and substitute my own.

Poor Bareil, the "Prophets" just don't like him. First they cause him to lose the election because he wouldn't have been interesting enough, then they kill him off because he had nothing else to do.
No, they just needed to get him out of the way because they needed someone in the office of Kai who would be willing to open the Book of the Kosst Amojan. Bareil would never have done that, so they eliminated him. The Prophets like their real politik.

The Collaborator is another good episode here at the end of the season. I also love that they were willing to let the "bad guy" win and it does really show that some foresight is being used for future episodes. After this episode, however, Bajoran politics really seem to take a back seat (with some exceptions), and that's a real shame. I love this kind of political intrigue.
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Old December 22 2011, 07:50 PM   #596
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

µDukat was in one of the books, IIRC. I think he was the leader of Cardassia (under Worf, as leadeer of the Alliance, of course), but sadly they didn't really explore anything interesting like a good Dukat with him, he was pretty much the same. In one of the Myriad Universe books, though, there was a brief appearance of a good Dukat who was Kira's lover (in a universe where Khan won the Eugenics wars and humans went on to create an interstellar empire based on genetic manipulation).
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Old December 22 2011, 07:57 PM   #597
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Indeed, Infinity's Prism, the first Myriad Universe book.

I suppose if we take Deranged Nasat's view of the election of the Kai as true, then Winn was indeed the right choice for Bajor at that time and the one who was the choice of the Prophets. Without her as Kai, the Pah Wraiths would never have been destroyed.
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Old December 22 2011, 09:47 PM   #598
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I like to think that that was the moment when he first realised himself that he had feelings for Kira, that he thought they were just close friends until he was confronted by her feelings for someone else, at which point his feelings came to his attention. But that's pure conjecture and has nothing much to do with this episode.
You know, I read somewhere that the writers never considered Odo being in love with Kira until this episode, but Rene Auberjoinous sorta ad-libbed Odo's reaction to Kira admitting she loved Bariel, and they went with it. Good call by the actor, I think.
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Old December 23 2011, 05:10 PM   #599
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
his seems to stem from the mindset of a two-party system where the idea of voting for a third-party candidate seems like a wasted vote.
Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.
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Old December 23 2011, 05:51 PM   #600
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
(this µ stuff confuses and enrages my Midwestern-American sensibilities! ).
You will submit to our superior European alphabets.
I reject your alphabet and substitute my own.
And what was the American alphabet originally? British! Besides TheGodBen was using the mu Greek alphabet letter, Greek! European alphabets are superior. Hell without them there would be no latinum names for every species classified by science. Mathematics would be short of great variable names!

Anyways, The Collaborator was a really clever episode, and whatever TheGodBen says, I love the Prophet scenes, as they are the closest DS9 gets to some weird sci-fi. At times DS9 almost forgets it is a sci-fi show (which is a actually a good thing), so having the Prophets balances things out.
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