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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 22 2011, 11:58 PM   #166
Therin of Andor
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Beyer's books sell because she is incredibly talented and writes Voyager better than the television writers ever did.
And Christie Golden's VOY books also sold extremely well - that's why she got the Relaunch gig - with a few of the Janeway fans even saying that Golden was the only Pocket author they liked.

So has there been a loss for the franchise or a win? Are you going to try to please just VOY fans (or just Janeway fans), or the more general ST fans? Seems to me the more general ST readers prefer Beyer to Golden.
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Old December 23 2011, 12:09 AM   #167
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I won't argue who the better author is. My point is killing Janeway was not wise. That act didn't help the franchise and only pleased the more fanatical Janeway haters. There was more gain in not killing Janeway than killing Janeway. Same was true for Kirk, Data, and Tripp. THAT is my point.

Hell, I'd say DS9 would have been better if they didn't "kill" Sisko.
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Old December 23 2011, 12:18 AM   #168
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Sales must be up, though, 'cos Kirsten keeps being contracted for more, more, more!
You've got to take into account that some people that wouldn't be reading the Voyager novels after plodding through the utter drivel written by Christie Golden have been brought back on board with killing Janeway (who I disliked) and Kirsten's excellent work...

For example, me !

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Old December 23 2011, 12:27 AM   #169
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
That act didn't help the franchise
But it did! VOY novels were in a slump (or non existent), but now they're not.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
... the utter drivel written by Christie Golden...
Well, I did dislike her "Dark Matters" trilogy and "Captain's Table" entry, but enjoyed (but had reservations over) "Homecoming"/"The Farther Shore".

I find it interesting that many in the "Janeway should never die" camp liked Golden's approach and refused to read/support most other ST books. Not to mention if no character is ever allowed to die, it really starts to stretch believability. As in, No matter what disaster befalls the UFP, every important character will always survive unless already killed off canonically.

Not so sure I want my heroes to be immortal.
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Old December 23 2011, 12:34 AM   #170
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
AnI think I was angrier when Dash Rendar was killed in Shadows of the Empire
Dash Rendar faked his death in Shadows of the Empire.

Did Janeway's death help the franchise, not affect it, or hurt it? I think it hurt it by driving away fans who now refuse to buy books. Are they being stupid and missing out some great works by Kristen Beyer? Yes. Should the editors have expected that and not made the bonehead move? Also yes.
Nonsense. They attracted more readers by killing her off than they drove away. There is no such thing as bad publicity, and all the protesters did was raise awareness of the series and raise sales. Speaking for myself, I was completely done with Voyager at the end of Spirit Walk and picked up Full Circle only because of the events of Before Dishonor. Now, Voyager is one of my favorite Trek book series.
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Old December 23 2011, 12:54 AM   #171
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

They could have had the same effect killing Chakotay. Killing Chakotay would probably done a better job overcoming the mediocre state of Voyager at the time. And I doubt the Voyager fanatics would have complained about losing Chuckles. He was more involved in the Voyager books at the time and wasn't the icon Janeway was.

But killing characters wouldn't be necessary at all with quality stories and authors. The good publicity of Beyer's high quality books would have rejuvenated interest in itself. I'm in a similar state in that I'm done with Ent. I still like Ent, but I wouldn't go back unless they get a decent author and story in there. No need to kill Archer.
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Old December 23 2011, 01:08 AM   #172
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
They attracted more readers by killing her off than they drove away. There is no such thing as bad publicity, and all the protesters did was raise awareness of the series and raise sales. Speaking for myself, I was completely done with Voyager at the end of Spirit Walk and picked up Full Circle only because of the events of Before Dishonor. Now, Voyager is one of my favorite Trek book series.
That about nails it for me too - not on my own then !

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that many in the "Janeway should never die" camp liked Golden's approach and refused to read/support most other ST books.
I find it somewhat disconcerting. Is it some bizarre sexual thing like the slash wierdo's that I completely failed to pick up on ?

My problem with Goldens work was that I found the writing worse than amateur and the plots truly pitiful - particularly Spirit Walk. Noting that this appears to be largely taken as fact on these boards, there has to be something in those novels that I missed...

Any ideas ?
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Old December 23 2011, 01:11 AM   #173
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Nah, killing Chakotay wouldn't have had the same effect. Remember the outrage and controversy when they killed Scotty and Selar? Yeah, me neither. Killing Chakotay would have been the same kind of thing. From my perspective, it certainly would NOT have brought ME back into the Voyager book fold.
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Old December 23 2011, 01:22 AM   #174
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
They could have had the same effect killing Chakotay. Killing Chakotay would probably done a better job overcoming the mediocre state of Voyager at the time. And I doubt the Voyager fanatics would have complained about losing Chuckles. He was more involved in the Voyager books at the time and wasn't the icon Janeway was.

But killing characters wouldn't be necessary at all with quality stories and authors. The good publicity of Beyer's high quality books would have rejuvenated interest in itself. I'm in a similar state being done with Ent. I still like Ent, but I wouldn't go back unless they get a decent author and story in there. No need to kill Archer.
It`s easier for the authors to stuff Janeway into the fridge than Chakotay. This way they don`t have to deal with a female captain unless it`s one that they put in place (Ro, Ezri). Female characters usually get the short end of the stick unless they`re the star of the show like Buffy, etc. In an larger group, even though one or two characters may be more like a traditional leading character, women usually end up on the losing end as time goes on.

Part of the problem is that most of the writers are men and generally don`t do as good a job writing women as they do men. The reverse is usually true as well. This is of course a general observation and there are authors of both genders who can handle characters of the opposite equally well.

I`m not a fan of how they killed Janeway. That doesn`t mean that I would be opposed to the character dying, just not in the way she did (or didn`t, considering the huge EXIT sign they hung on it by bringing in the Q). It makes the death meaningless if she can return at any time with a sanp of the fingers. Ì`m much better now. It was just a case of 24 hour death.`
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Old December 23 2011, 01:24 AM   #175
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
They could have had the same effect killing Chakotay. Killing Chakotay would probably done a better job overcoming the mediocre state of Voyager at the time. And I doubt the Voyager fanatics would have complained about losing Chuckles. He was more involved in the Voyager books at the time and wasn't the icon Janeway was.

But killing characters wouldn't be necessary at all with quality stories and authors. The good publicity of Beyer's high quality books would have rejuvenated interest in itself. I'm in a similar state in that I'm done with Ent. I still like Ent, but I wouldn't go back unless they get a decent author and story in there. No need to kill Archer.
If they killed Chakotay, I doubt anyone would notice. It would be right up there with killing Travis Mayweather, or the second nameless redshirt from "The Apple"
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Old December 23 2011, 01:27 AM   #176
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
They could have had the same effect killing Chakotay. Killing Chakotay would probably done a better job overcoming the mediocre state of Voyager at the time. And I doubt the Voyager fanatics would have complained about losing Chuckles. He was more involved in the Voyager books at the time and wasn't the icon Janeway was.

But killing characters wouldn't be necessary at all with quality stories and authors. The good publicity of Beyer's high quality books would have rejuvenated interest in itself. I'm in a similar state in that I'm done with Ent. I still like Ent, but I wouldn't go back unless they get a decent author and story in there. No need to kill Archer.
If they killed Chakotay, I doubt anyone would notice. It would be right up there with killing Travis Mayweather, or the second nameless redshirt from "The Apple"
Then they`d be facing cries of `racist`for killing off the native character while leaving the multitude of white characters alone.
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Old December 23 2011, 01:34 AM   #177
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
It`s easier for the authors to stuff Janeway into the fridge than Chakotay. This way they don`t have to deal with a female captain unless it`s one that they put in place (Ro, Ezri).
Have you actually read the books? Janeway was replaced with a female captain, Afsarah Eden.


Female characters usually get the short end of the stick unless they`re the star of the show like Buffy, etc. In an larger group, even though one or two characters may be more like a traditional leading character, women usually end up on the losing end as time goes on.
Not in Trek Lit. We have tons of central female characters. Kira has been the commander of DS9 since the start of the post-finale novels. Ezri Dax is captain of the Aventine now. In SCE/Corps of Engineers, Sonya Gomez was the commander of the SCE team and the lead character of the series. The Destiny trilogy focused largely on Captain Erika Hernandez of the Columbia. The current command crew of the Enterprise in the post-Nemesis TNG novels is mostly female. Over on Titan, Captain Riker's chief advisors -- his first officer and his wife/diplomatic officer -- are both female, and so is his science officer. And the current President of the United Federation of Planets in the novels, one of the most popular recurring characters in the line, is a woman.
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Old December 23 2011, 01:54 AM   #178
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
It`s easier for the authors to stuff Janeway into the fridge than Chakotay. This way they don`t have to deal with a female captain unless it`s one that they put in place (Ro, Ezri).
Have you actually read the books? Janeway was replaced with a female captain, Afsarah Eden.


Female characters usually get the short end of the stick unless they`re the star of the show like Buffy, etc. In an larger group, even though one or two characters may be more like a traditional leading character, women usually end up on the losing end as time goes on.
Not in Trek Lit. We have tons of central female characters. Kira has been the commander of DS9 since the start of the post-finale novels. Ezri Dax is captain of the Aventine now. In SCE/Corps of Engineers, Sonya Gomez was the commander of the SCE team and the lead character of the series. The Destiny trilogy focused largely on Captain Erika Hernandez of the Columbia. The current command crew of the Enterprise in the post-Nemesis TNG novels is mostly female. Over on Titan, Captain Riker's chief advisors -- his first officer and his wife/diplomatic officer -- are both female, and so is his science officer. And the current President of the United Federation of Planets in the novels, one of the most popular recurring characters in the line, is a woman.
Thanks for responding Christopher. Love your work on Titan.

I guess you missed the part of my post where I said ``This way they don`t have to deal with a female captain unless it`s one that they put in place``

Kira was in command of DS9 at the end of the series and now, unlike her male counterparts, has gotten herself to a nunnery. When was the last time Picard resigned and became a monk?

Ro is now in command, a position she was placed in by the authors of the books. Again, see the bold portion above. This also applies to Afsarah Eden.

I didn't say that there were no female characters. I said that they usually get the short end of the stick as compared to their male counterparts.

The TNG crew of late has been such a mess that we don't know what will happen with them. However, T'Lana was the most promenent member of the crew to oppose Picard, essentially commiting mutiny.

I did not inter my comments to mean that there are no well written female characters or that all male characters are well written. However, comparing the two, the females are treated less well by the stories than their male counterparts.
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Old December 23 2011, 02:22 AM   #179
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
I guess you missed the part of my post where I said ``This way they don`t have to deal with a female captain unless it`s one that they put in place``
I was so distracted by the outrageous and insulting accusation that Trek Lit writers would not want to "deal with a female captain" of any sort that I didn't notice the rest of the sentence.


Kira was in command of DS9 at the end of the series and now, unlike her male counterparts, has gotten herself to a nunnery. When was the last time Picard resigned and became a monk?
Captain Sisko went on indefinite leave and embraced his role as a Bajoran religious figure for several years while Kira commanded the station. Now, 4-5 years later, those roles have been reversed. Kira was the commander of DS9 in well over a dozen novels; she's been in a monastery for exactly one so far.


Ro is now in command, a position she was placed in by the authors of the books. Again, see the bold portion above. This also applies to Afsarah Eden.
I don't understand why you think we'd care whether it was our character or someone else's. Why would we only be selectively sexist?


The TNG crew of late has been such a mess that we don't know what will happen with them.
Define "of late." Sure, there was a lot of crew turnover in the TNG novels published between September 2007 and August 2008, but the command crew that was in place as of Greater Than the Sum has only lost one member in the ensuing three years of real time and two-plus years of story time. Whatever "mess" there may have been for a brief time is well in the past.


However, T'Lana was the most promenent member of the crew to oppose Picard, essentially commiting mutiny.
Well, strictly speaking it was Picard who was committing mutiny, and Kadohata, with the cooperation of T'Lana and Leybenzon, who was obeying Admiral Nechayev's orders to relieve him of command.


I did not inter my comments to mean that there are no well written female characters or that all male characters are well written. However, comparing the two, the females are treated less well by the stories than their male counterparts.
I don't see why you'd think that. If anything, although I haven't counted, I daresay that the majority of original characters created by Trek novelists in recent years have been female. (For instance, the majority-female TNG crew came about because Keith DeCandido, David Mack, and I all independently decided we wanted to add new female characters to the cast.) So the idea that we'd have some resistance to "dealing with" female characters of any rank or any origin is bizarre.
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Old December 23 2011, 02:25 AM   #180
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
The TNG crew of late has been such a mess that we don't know what will happen with them. However, T'Lana was the most promenent member of the crew to oppose Picard, essentially commiting mutiny.
How so? The command crew has been pretty much steady for 7 books, and 4 or 5 years of story time at this point and I haven't seen any reason to believe that will change. We did lose Kadohata in Losing the Peace, but that was fairly minor compared to the books before it, and her leaving was completely voluntary, so I wouldn't be surprised if she popped back up eventually.
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