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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 22 2011, 07:37 PM   #301
Caligula
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

You know, there's a reason why Star Trek: Nemesis was the only Trek film in the $3 bin at my local Big Lots last night. Disliking Nemesis does not keep one from being a Trek fan, nor does preferring Star Trek '09 over it. Not in the least.
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Old December 22 2011, 07:42 PM   #302
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
You cannot claim that the progressive ideas of Trek came out of one of these studio heads who considered "The Cage" to be too cerebral and wanted Trek to be more of a space western.
Pretty sure the "cerebral" thing is a bit of a myth as well. The pilot was well received by the executives. They did have problems with some of the casting (Like GR casting his then mistress) and the character of Spock. Who, ironically would be the shows break out character.
Just compare the two pilots, "The Cage" is a classical 50s/60s style sci-fi story whereas "Where No Man Has Gone Before" features the Western elements the studio demands.
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Old December 22 2011, 08:13 PM   #303
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
Rumor has it that Chekov came about because the Soviet newspaper Pravda noted that there seemed to be no Russians in the future.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/chekov.asp
Chekov's character had more to do with the popularity of The Monkees than it did the Soviets.
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Old December 22 2011, 08:14 PM   #304
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
You cannot claim that the progressive ideas of Trek came out of one of these studio heads who considered "The Cage" to be too cerebral and wanted Trek to be more of a space western.
Pretty sure the "cerebral" thing is a bit of a myth as well. The pilot was well received by the executives. They did have problems with some of the casting (Like GR casting his then mistress) and the character of Spock. Who, ironically would be the shows break out character.
Just compare the two pilots, "The Cage" is a classical 50s/60s style sci-fi story whereas "Where No Man Has Gone Before" features the Western elements the studio demands.
Do you have evidence the studio demand "Western elements". The show was pitched by GR as "Wagon Train to the stars. Wagon Train being a popular western. It was conceived as a "space western" from the start. What were the "Western elements" in WNMHGB? It seems as "cerebral" as The Cage. Both involve antagonists with mind powers. Both explore how great powers impact people. The friend goes power mad element in WNMHGB is universal and not unique to Westerns. I'd say the plot of WNMHGB would be more at home on The Twilight Zone or Outer Limits than Bonanza or Gunsmoke.
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Old December 22 2011, 08:59 PM   #305
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Jingle Balrog wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
Rumor has it that Chekov came about because the Soviet newspaper Pravda noted that there seemed to be no Russians in the future.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/chekov.asp
Chekov's character had more to do with the popularity of The Monkees than it did the Soviets.
Actually had more to do with the popularity of The Beatles which is why he had the mop top and was suppose to be British originally.
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Old December 22 2011, 09:23 PM   #306
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
Do you have evidence the studio demand "Western elements". The show was pitched by GR as "Wagon Train to the stars. Wagon Train being a popular western. It was conceived as a "space western" from the start. What were the "Western elements" in WNMHGB? It seems as "cerebral" as The Cage. Both involve antagonists with mind powers. Both explore how great powers impact people. The friend goes power mad element in WNMHGB is universal and not unique to Westerns. I'd say the plot of WNMHGB would be more at home on The Twilight Zone or Outer Limits than Bonanza or Gunsmoke.
NBC rejected the episode, following its production, and declared it was "too cerebral." Robert Butler found he could relate to this statement. "Apparently, the network, at its level, was feeling exactly as I did," he remarked. (Starlog issue #117, p. 55) According to Gene Roddenberry, he had a similar response to the news. "I sort of understood [NBC's verdict]," he said. "I wrote and produced what I thought was a highly imaginative idea, and I realized I had gone too far. I should actually have ended it with a fistfight between the hero and the villain if I wanted it on television [...] because that's the way shows were being made at the time. The great mass audience would say, 'Well, if you don't have a fistfight when it's ended, how do we know that's the finish?,' and things like that." (The Star Trek Interview Book, p. 10) Besides finding the episode too intellectual, NBC also cited criticisms such as the presence of a female first officer on the bridge and the character of Spock being too alien for audiences of the time. (Star Trek Monthly issue 6, pp. 14, 20, 52; et al.)

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_..._and_Aftermath

Western is the wrong word, action vs. thematic density (sounds not as presumptuous as cerebral) might be a better description. This conflict is present in all Trek and if you take a look at the movies the ones who balance these two elements well are usually good movies.
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Old December 22 2011, 09:26 PM   #307
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

The female first officer myth was debunked long ago. NBC didn't like Majel Barrett not the idea itself.
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Old December 22 2011, 09:46 PM   #308
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

horatio83 is another who needs to read Inside Star Trek. It counters alot of the spin GR produced over the years.

I seem to recall quite a bit of action in The Cage. Pike fought the Kaylar, an ape like creature/Talosian illusion and threatened to blow the Keepers head off. Not to mention the cool laser scene.

Human violence is even the key to the Talosians letting them go.
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Old December 22 2011, 10:20 PM   #309
horatio83
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

I never claimed there is no action or violence in "The Cage", I merely repeated what the NBC folks said, that it was too cerebral for them. It has typical 50s/60s sci-fi features like an underlying psychoanalytical theme. "Where No Man has Gone Before" on the other hand leans more towards the action and less towards the sci-fi angle.

By the way, linking to Trekcore images does not work for a good reason.
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Old December 22 2011, 10:55 PM   #310
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I never claimed there is no action or violence in "The Cage", I merely repeated what the NBC folks said, that it was too cerebral for them. It has typical 50s/60s sci-fi features like an underlying psychoanalytical theme. "Where No Man has Gone Before" on the other hand leans more towards the action and less towards the sci-fi angle.

By the way, linking to Trekcore images does not work for a good reason.
No, you're repeating what GR claimed NBC folks said. Justman and Solow paint a different picture. They claim that "cerebral" was networkspeak for sex not violence. Not surprising since Americans find a naked breast more offensive than an exploding head.

Sorry but many, if not most of 50s/60s scific were the Michael Bay films of the day. Some just played on Red Scare/Nuclear War paranoia.

WNMHGB is hardly action packed. Most of the action happens in the final act. Prior that it's talking heads with the crew debating what to do about Gary, while Gary grows more powerful and crazy. A fair amount of "psychoanalytical themes" too. Power corrupts. The price of friendship. A bit a "sophie's choice" as well.

Not sure what your comment about Trek Core means.

ETA: How can a guy gaining vast godlike psi-powers be "less Sci-Fi???"
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Last edited by Nerys Myk; December 22 2011 at 11:12 PM.
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Old December 22 2011, 11:48 PM   #311
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post

Not sure what your comment about Trek Core means.
You can't directly link to images there anymore.
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Old December 22 2011, 11:57 PM   #312
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post

Not sure what your comment about Trek Core means.
You can't directly link to images there anymore.
Do they think that's a bad thing?
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Old December 23 2011, 12:03 AM   #313
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post

Not sure what your comment about Trek Core means.
You can't directly link to images there anymore.
Do they think that's a bad thing?
Not sure of the reasoning behind it, I found out the hard way when I tried to link to some images on there a while back.
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Old December 23 2011, 02:12 AM   #314
horatio83
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
No, you're repeating what GR claimed NBC folks said. Justman and Solow paint a different picture. They claim that "cerebral" was networkspeak for sex not violence. Not surprising since Americans find a naked breast more offensive than an exploding head.

Sorry but many, if not most of 50s/60s scific were the Michael Bay films of the day. Some just played on Red Scare/Nuclear War paranoia.

WNMHGB is hardly action packed. Most of the action happens in the final act. Prior that it's talking heads with the crew debating what to do about Gary, while Gary grows more powerful and crazy. A fair amount of "psychoanalytical themes" too. Power corrupts. The price of friendship. A bit a "sophie's choice" as well.

Not sure what your comment about Trek Core means.

ETA: How can a guy gaining vast godlike psi-powers be "less Sci-Fi???"
The Justman sounds plausable, they might have also have had an issue with the sexual themes of "The Cage".
Anyway, pointless to debate such background issues, you just gotta watch the two pilots to realize that the first one is not merely more cerebral and sci-fi-ish than the second one but also more memorable and popular.

Doesn't mean these qualities are always good, it is e.g. unbearable to watch a movie like TMP.

About classical sci-fi movies, if you ignore the B movies (on the big screen WNMHGB would have been a B movie) they are overall far better than contemporary sci-fi movies. It is not incidentally called the golden age of science fiction.
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Old December 23 2011, 02:30 AM   #315
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

horatio83 wrote: View Post
The Justman sounds plausable, they might have also have had an issue with the sexual themes of "The Cage".
Anyway, pointless to debate such background issues, you just gotta watch the two pilots to realize that the first one is not merely more cerebral and sci-fi-ish than the second one but also more memorable and popular.

Doesn't mean these qualities are always good, it is e.g. unbearable to watch a movie like TMP.

About classical sci-fi movies, if you ignore the B movies (on the big screen WNMHGB would have been a B movie) they are overall far better than contemporary sci-fi movies. It is not incidentally called the golden age of science fiction.
I've seen both many times and I can't see why "The Cage" is more cerebral, other than being told that it is so many times that we've come to believe it. Same for the "sci-fi-ish". Care to explain? Tell us what's more cerebral and sci-fi-ish about "The Cage"? At best I'd say its more cinematic.

Oh, so we have to eliminate the B-movies to find what's "typical".

You must have a different definition of "typical".
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