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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 22 2011, 04:41 AM   #151
Destructor
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

DonIago wrote: View Post
Not everyone feels it's bad. I think it's rather OTT, but not necessarily more so than PAD's other books. Doesn't make it bad, just not what some readers are looking for in their Trek.
It was pretty f*cking dumb.
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Old December 22 2011, 05:24 AM   #152
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^...and then some people felt that way. (shrug)
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Old December 22 2011, 11:03 AM   #153
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I think fans are a lot more forgiving of Peter David's unhinged stuff when it happens in New Frontier (the Great Bird of the Galaxy hatching out of a planet, chasing Excalibur at warp 9 and laying it's egg in the warp core as it passed etc) than when it involves mainline Trek characters and locales.

It's probably the same way TNG fans would have reacted if Picard had met Apollo and Jack the Ripper, or visited Unexplained Roman Planet.
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Old December 22 2011, 04:12 PM   #154
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I like those over the top TOS style stories David writes. I wouldn't want them all the time, but they fit in once in a while. There is clearly a place for imagination and sci fi bordering on fantasy in the 24th century, especially when Q is involved and David is probably the most experienced in writing Q. With all the political intrigue going in trek lit now, its nice to have the occasional book with some fun and fanciful mixed in, which is still very much trek style.

And the book had excellent moments like the queen intimidating Q, the planet killer fighting a borg cube. I personally liked when Pluto was eaten. The characters were also very real, the final moments between Seven and Janeway moving. And though many hate this part, he left a window open for Janeway's return since killing her was as dumb a move as SW killing Chewbacca and pushed away many fans from reading. Angering those Janeway addicts was a REALLY dumb move.
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Old December 22 2011, 04:54 PM   #155
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^I thought it was kind of hilarious myself, the Janeway-killing, if only because of the ensuing (and rather predictable) reaction. Watch the Janeway-lovers get their knickers in a twist.
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Old December 22 2011, 05:24 PM   #156
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

And my personal feeling is people die, so get used to it. I think I was angrier when Dash Rendar was killed in Shadows of the Empire because it was meaningless and it was like, where did he go? He must have been killed in the explosion. Just as people (especially soldiers) die in reality and we have to get used to and learn to cope, we have to face death with fictional friends and heroes.

However, killing characters to generate controversy which will hopefully generate interest is stupid and just doesn't work. All of us who don't care about Janeway will keep reading but those Janeway fanatics and teenage girls who idolized Janeway now feel insulted by the franchise, killing off the progressive female captain. Can you blane them? Many didn't like what DRG III did with Sisko or Kirk's death in Generations.

Did Janeway's death help the franchise, not affect it, or hurt it? I think it hurt it by driving away fans who now refuse to buy books. Are they being stupid and missing out some great works by Kristen Beyer? Yes. Should the editors have expected that and not made the bonehead move? Also yes.
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Old December 22 2011, 05:43 PM   #157
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

JWolf wrote: View Post
The way I see it, even if Janeway is brought back from the dead, the current story arc can leave here out of it very easily and without affecting what's currently going on.
I actually wouldn't mind this. Janeway popping up as a deskbound Admiral, i.e. a secondary character, isn't as annoying as having her there all the time.

The Voyager crew dynamic is great as it stands and Janeways return could really interfere with it. However, the resolution of the Eden story arc may well open up a Janeway shaped vacancy in the Delta Quadrant fleet.

I hope not, but...
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Old December 22 2011, 08:49 PM   #158
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I think fans are a lot more forgiving of Peter David's unhinged stuff when it happens in New Frontier (the Great Bird of the Galaxy hatching out of a planet, chasing Excalibur at warp 9 and laying it's egg in the warp core as it passed etc) than when it involves mainline Trek characters and locales.

It's probably the same way TNG fans would have reacted if Picard had met Apollo and Jack the Ripper, or visited Unexplained Roman Planet.
At least when he confines his stunts to his own series, the damage can be contained.
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Old December 22 2011, 09:35 PM   #159
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

What stunts? What specifically did you hate or was over the top ridiculous?

And sense NF falls within the relaunch continuity at this point with the same editorial controls in place, what happens in NF doesn't stay in NF.
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Old December 22 2011, 10:56 PM   #160
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Angering those Janeway addicts was a REALLY dumb move.
It garnered lots of free viral publicity. A handful of angry fans, telling anyone who'd listen that they were angry, is worth latinum. The average ST fan is probably not swayed to hate something just because other people hate it. I imagine the fuss sold a lot of books.

Marketing people often say that any publicity is good publicity. Better a book polarise its readership than merely sit there, neither popular or unpopular.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Janeway popping up as a deskbound Admiral, i.e. a secondary character...
And yet, we've been there, done that, too.
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Old December 22 2011, 10:57 PM   #161
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I used to enjoy PAD's work but lately it's like he comes up with a bunch of jokes and then twists the plot and characters to fit them. I don't mind the other books mentioning the Excalibur or it's crew just so long as PAD stays in his own corner of the sandbox where I can safely ignore his books. There may be a crew similar to the NF bunch in the novelverse but I imagine that the NF books actually occur in a parallel universe, much like how the movie & TOS are similar but not the same.
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Old December 22 2011, 11:07 PM   #162
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Did Janeway's death help the franchise, not affect it, or hurt it? I think it hurt it by driving away fans who now refuse to buy books. Are they being stupid and missing out some great works by Kristen Beyer? Yes. Should the editors have expected that and not made the bonehead move? Also yes.
How many people blackbanned the book? If you check the VOY thread, and the one where they were setting questions for Kristen Beyer to answer at her Shore Leave panel, you're talking about 20 to 30 fans max. And some of those did come around to trying "Full Circle" and beyond.

So Margaret Clark's "bonehead move" pissed off about twenty people but intrigued possibly hundreds to pick up the book, and then read the refreshed relaunch.
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Old December 22 2011, 11:08 PM   #163
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Angering those Janeway addicts was a REALLY dumb move.
It garnered lots of free viral publicity. A handful of angry fans, telling anyone who'd listen that they were angry, is worth latinum. The average ST fan is probably not swayed to hate something just because other people hate it. I imagine the fuss sold a lot of books.

Marketing people often say that any publicity is good publicity. Better a book polarise its readership than merely sit there, neither popular or unpopular.
They may have win the battle but lost a war. Many Voyager fans refused to read trek lit after Before Dishonor. Maybe the publicity helped the one book, but it didn't help subsequent books. There were many trek readers who wouldn't read voyager because they hate voyager, now you have voyager fanatics who won't read voyager despite the quality of Beyer's work and her working with the hand she was dealt. The gain was not greater than the loss.

Killing off main characters just pisses off fans. It was true of Kirk, Data, and Trip. Not sure how people reacted to Spock dying.
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Old December 22 2011, 11:24 PM   #164
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
They may have win the battle but lost a war. Many Voyager fans refused to read trek lit after Before Dishonor. Maybe the publicity helped the one book, but it didn't help subsequent books. There were many trek readers who wouldn't read voyager because they hate voyager, now you have voyager fanatics who won't read voyager...
But, as many of them admitted here before, they didn't read Janeway in any of the licensed tie-ins before (except "Mosaic"). Like the TOS fans who got off on Kirk/Spock relationships began to write, publish and buy slash fanzines when they couldn't find enough homoerotic scenes in canonical TOS and movies and licensed tie-ins, the so-called "Janeway fans" touted that they much preferred their own online fanfics to the way Pocket (and Paramount) had always mistreated their heroine. Of those angry people we met here several times, only a few had read VOY novels in the past when they announced their boycott on non-Janeway VOY novels.

despite the quality of Beyer's work and her working with the hand she was dealt. The gain was not greater than the loss.
Sales must be up, though, 'cos Kirsten keeps being contracted for more, more, more!

Not sure how people reacted to Spock dying.
Just Google it, but ST II was assumed to be the last ST movie at the time, some fans went into deep mourning - and, not that long after, we got one, then two sequels out of it and several decades of new ST. Leonard Nimoy himself launched a new profile as a movie director and even wrote "I Am Spock", almost retracting his previous autobiography, "I Am Not Spock".
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Old December 22 2011, 11:42 PM   #165
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Beyer's books sell because she is incredibly talented and writes Voyager better than the television writers ever did. The lack of Janeway simply shows all the more how good she is. Had Janeway not been axed, her books may sell even better even if Janeway was riding a desk at Command. As it is, we probably wouldn't have gotten Eden if Janeway were around;though Eden is far more interesting, she isn't the commander Voyager fanatics came to love. Were they reading before Before Dishonor, maybe not but they sure don't want to read now. I think they are being silly and fickle, but the franchise should have known that and not made the bonehead decisions they did in killing characters in Generations, TATV, and Before Dishonor.

Spock's death was done so much better than any other character. Plus at the time, fans probably weren't expecting any more trek anyways.
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