If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... - Page 20

trek_futurist · December 22 2011, 05:53 AM

Herkimer Jitty wrote:

trek_futurist wrote:

Herkimer Jitty wrote:

That's nice.

How does liking ST09 not make someone a real Star Trek fan?

Because it doesn't make treksense.

How does liking ST09 not make someone a real Star Trek fan? This time, with at least one paragraph, and without any glib catchphrase words.

The sad part is that I explained it all in the first post.

Dukhat · December 22 2011, 06:19 AM

trek_futurist wrote:

Herkimer Jitty wrote:

trek_futurist wrote:

Because it doesn't make treksense.

How does liking ST09 not make someone a real Star Trek fan? This time, with at least one paragraph, and without any glib catchphrase words.

The sad part is that I explained it all in the first post.

No, the sad part is that you've been able to troll your BS for 20 pages.

Nerys Myk · December 22 2011, 06:20 AM

trek_futurist wrote:

Santa Kang wrote:

trek_futurist wrote:

He could have made a lot more money making traditional westerns, which were extremely popular at that time, to my understanding. And this show was not, exactly, favored by TV execs. So what you are saying is complete and utter non-sense. Next..

You actually think that Roddenberry didn't want to make money?

You know what else was popular at that time? Space exploration. You know who America's newest heroes were? Astronauts. So a show taking the tropes of Westerns set in space would be something the execs would look at. They liked it enough to green light a second pilot. A somewhat unusual move in those days.

To quote Khan, " I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration".

I'm not saying Gene Roddenberry didn't want to make money, that would be foolish, because money means the continuation of his medium.

BUT

He could have made money a lot easier doing traditional television.

Now let me remind some of you from the older generations what was NOT popular back then. Racial tolerance! And that is one of the first things Gene fought to represent in the bridge crew!

Actually that was the network's suggestion. Diversity was something they were looking for. See Trek's sister show Mission Impossible and I Spy as examples.

ETA: The book you need to read is Inside Star Trek by Justman and Solow. It might burst a few bubbles though.

J. Allen · December 22 2011, 07:39 AM

trek_futurist wrote:

Herkimer Jitty wrote:

trek_futurist wrote:

You need to first define hardship.

If by hardship, you are referring to basic human limitations, then there will always be some limits, albeit slimmer as time and technology (especially medical technology) advances.

But then there is absolutely no reason to eschew our further evolution either. There is no reason why we cannot adapt to a life of less hardship, especially if our libidos are focusing their energies elsewhere, such as in the maintenance of technology, the charting of star systems, the diplomacy of burgeoning species.

That's nice.

How does liking ST09 not make someone a real Star Trek fan?

Because it doesn't make treksense.

Like Star Trek.

MasuPu'a · December 22 2011, 07:40 AM

Maurice · December 22 2011, 07:52 AM

trek_futurist wrote:

Now let me remind some of you from the older generations what was NOT popular back then. Racial tolerance! And that is one of the first things Gene fought to represent in the bridge crew!

As Santa Kang mentions...

Baloney. That's just a myth that's long since been busted by Herb Solow and Bob Justman, who cited an August 17. 1965 letter from NBC V.P. Mort Werner memo that encouraged programs to feature "minority" characters.

Furthermore, Solow related:

"We applaud the attempts at a racial mix; it's exactly what we want. Hopefully, there'll be more experienced minority actors available for next year.'"

Herb Solow, relating feedback from NBC's Mort Werner
Inside Star Trek, p. 60

Maurice · December 22 2011, 09:30 AM

re Roddenberry fighting to have a multi-ethnic cast on Star Trek.

Since this keeps coming up time and time again, I feel it's time to just reproduce the full text of the 1965 (before the series was greenlit) NBC memo that illustrates that Roddenberry had to do no such thing.

Here it is, emphasis mine:

NBC TELEVISION NETWORK

August 17, 1965

Mr. Gene Roddenberry
DESILU STUDIOS
Hollywood, Calif.

Dear Gene:

Census figures, in the mid-1960s, indicate that one American in every eight is non-white. It is reasonable to assume that this percentage also applies to the television audience.

I choose this statistic to call to your attention once again to NBC's longstanding policy of non-discrimination. Our efforts in the past to assure the fact that the programs broadcast on our facilities are a natural reflection of the role of minorities in American life have met with substantial success. I would like to congratulate those producers who have extended themselves in this regard and I invite all of our creative associates to join us in an even greater effort to meet this fact of American life.

NBC's employment policy has long dictated that there can be no discrimination because of race, creed, religion or national origin and this applies in all of out operations. In addition, since we are mindful of our vast audience and the extent to which television influences taste and attitudes, we are not only anxious but determined that members of minority groups be treated in a manner consistent with their role in society. While this applies to all racial minorities, obviously the principle reference is to the casting and depiction of Negroes. Our purpose is to assure that in our medium, and within the permissive framework of dramatic license, we present a reasonable reflection of contemporary society.

We urge producers to cast Negroes, subject to their availability and competence as performs, as people who are an integral segment of the population, as well as in those roles where the fact of their minority status is of significance. An earnest attempt has been made to see that their presence contributes to an honest and natural reflection of places, situations and events, and we desire to intensify and extend this effort.

We believe that NBC's pursuit of this police is pre-eminent in the broadcasting industry. It is evident in both the daytime and nighttime schedules and particularly in such popular programs as I SPY, THE ANDY WILLIAMS SHOW, THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E., RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, and many other presentations. While we have made noticeable progress we can do better, and I ask you for your cooperation and help.

Sincerely,

MORT WERNER
[Programs Vice President]

* As reproduced on pages 76–77 of the book Inside Star Trek by Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman, 1996 by Pocket Books

King Daniel Into Darkness · December 22 2011, 09:53 AM

However it came about, Trek's racial toerance message is a powerful one - and it's one that Star Trek '09 encapulates better than any Star Trek has before! There is more (human) racial diversity in this movie than any prior Star Trek one. Look around on Earth, on the Kelvin, at Starfleet Academy, and on the Enterprise.

Case in point: Captain Robau. A Middle-Eastern guy commanding a Federation starship.

Hell - even members of Nero's Romulan crew were given assorted lumps and bumps, indicating Romulan racial diversity.

J. Allen · December 22 2011, 10:16 AM

^ It was definitely nice to see Romulans (as well as many other aliens) looking different.

horatio83 · December 22 2011, 02:52 PM

Maurice Navidad wrote:

re Roddenberry fighting to have a multi-ethnic cast on Star Trek.

Since this keeps coming up time and time again, I feel it's time to just reproduce the full text of the 1965 (before the series was greenlit) NBC memo that illustrates that Roddenberry had to do no such thing.

Here it is, emphasis mine:

NBC TELEVISION NETWORK

August 17, 1965

Mr. Gene Roddenberry
DESILU STUDIOS
Hollywood, Calif.

Dear Gene:

Census figures, in the mid-1960s, indicate that one American in every eight is non-white. It is reasonable to assume that this percentage also applies to the television audience.

I choose this statistic to call to your attention once again to NBC's longstanding policy of non-discrimination. Our efforts in the past to assure the fact that the programs broadcast on our facilities are a natural reflection of the role of minorities in American life have met with substantial success. I would like to congratulate those producers who have extended themselves in this regard and I invite all of our creative associates to join us in an even greater effort to meet this fact of American life.

NBC's employment policy has long dictated that there can be no discrimination because of race, creed, religion or national origin and this applies in all of out operations. In addition, since we are mindful of our vast audience and the extent to which television influences taste and attitudes, we are not only anxious but determined that members of minority groups be treated in a manner consistent with their role in society. While this applies to all racial minorities, obviously the principle reference is to the casting and depiction of Negroes. Our purpose is to assure that in our medium, and within the permissive framework of dramatic license, we present a reasonable reflection of contemporary society.

We urge producers to cast Negroes, subject to their availability and competence as performs, as people who are an integral segment of the population, as well as in those roles where the fact of their minority status is of significance. An earnest attempt has been made to see that their presence contributes to an honest and natural reflection of places, situations and events, and we desire to intensify and extend this effort.

We believe that NBC's pursuit of this police is pre-eminent in the broadcasting industry. It is evident in both the daytime and nighttime schedules and particularly in such popular programs as I SPY, THE ANDY WILLIAMS SHOW, THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E., RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, and many other presentations. While we have made noticeable progress we can do better, and I ask you for your cooperation and help.

Sincerely,

MORT WERNER
[Programs Vice President]

* As reproduced on pages 76–77 of the book Inside Star Trek by Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman, 1996 by Pocket Books

Nothing about casting former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
You cannot claim that the progressive ideas of Trek came out of one of these studio head who considered "The Cage" to be too cerebral and wanted Trek to be more of a space western.

horatio83 · December 22 2011, 02:54 PM

Maurice Navidad wrote:

re Roddenberry fighting to have a multi-ethnic cast on Star Trek.

Since this keeps coming up time and time again, I feel it's time to just reproduce the full text of the 1965 (before the series was greenlit) NBC memo that illustrates that Roddenberry had to do no such thing.

Here it is, emphasis mine:

NBC TELEVISION NETWORK

August 17, 1965

Mr. Gene Roddenberry
DESILU STUDIOS
Hollywood, Calif.

Dear Gene:

Census figures, in the mid-1960s, indicate that one American in every eight is non-white. It is reasonable to assume that this percentage also applies to the television audience.

I choose this statistic to call to your attention once again to NBC's longstanding policy of non-discrimination. Our efforts in the past to assure the fact that the programs broadcast on our facilities are a natural reflection of the role of minorities in American life have met with substantial success. I would like to congratulate those producers who have extended themselves in this regard and I invite all of our creative associates to join us in an even greater effort to meet this fact of American life.

NBC's employment policy has long dictated that there can be no discrimination because of race, creed, religion or national origin and this applies in all of out operations. In addition, since we are mindful of our vast audience and the extent to which television influences taste and attitudes, we are not only anxious but determined that members of minority groups be treated in a manner consistent with their role in society. While this applies to all racial minorities, obviously the principle reference is to the casting and depiction of Negroes. Our purpose is to assure that in our medium, and within the permissive framework of dramatic license, we present a reasonable reflection of contemporary society.

We urge producers to cast Negroes, subject to their availability and competence as performs, as people who are an integral segment of the population, as well as in those roles where the fact of their minority status is of significance. An earnest attempt has been made to see that their presence contributes to an honest and natural reflection of places, situations and events, and we desire to intensify and extend this effort.

We believe that NBC's pursuit of this police is pre-eminent in the broadcasting industry. It is evident in both the daytime and nighttime schedules and particularly in such popular programs as I SPY, THE ANDY WILLIAMS SHOW, THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E., RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, and many other presentations. While we have made noticeable progress we can do better, and I ask you for your cooperation and help.

Sincerely,

MORT WERNER
[Programs Vice President]

* As reproduced on pages 76–77 of the book Inside Star Trek by Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman, 1996 by Pocket Books

Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
You cannot claim that the progressive ideas of Trek came out of one of these studio heads who considered "The Cage" to be too cerebral and wanted Trek to be more of a space western.

BillJ · December 22 2011, 03:16 PM

horatio83 wrote:

Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.

Rumor has it that Chekov came about because the Soviet newspaper Pravda noted that there seemed to be no Russians in the future.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/chekov.asp

BillJ · December 22 2011, 03:39 PM

Santa Kang wrote:

ETA: The book you need to read is Inside Star Trek by Justman and Solow. It might burst a few bubbles though.

This. A fascinating read that doesn't always paint Roddenberry in a flattering way but does shine a light on his abilities as a TV producer.

All you have to know about Roddenberry is this: he wrote lyrics to Alexander Courage's end music so he could claim half of any royalties that Courage earned from it. Sounds like a stand up guy to me.

Nerys Myk · December 22 2011, 06:27 PM

horatio83 wrote:

Nothing about featuring former and contemporary enemies, Japanese and Russians, in this letter.
You cannot claim that the progressive ideas of Trek came out of one of these studio heads who considered "The Cage" to be too cerebral and wanted Trek to be more of a space western.

Pretty sure the "cerebral" thing is a bit of a myth as well. The pilot was well received by the executives. They did have problems with some of the casting (Like GR casting his then mistress) and the character of Spock. Who, ironically would be the shows break out character.

As for casting Japanese and Russian characters. First I don't think Sulu was Japanese in the beginning, but was "pan Asian". He became more Japanese later one. Secondly the war had been over almost two decades by the time Star Trek was made. American servicemen ( like my father) had been living in Japan since the end of the war, bringing home Japanese culture and "war brides". I spent half my childhood living in Japan. Japan was also our strongest Far Eastern ally and a staging point for operations in Vietnam and electronic intelligence aimed at the Soviets and Chinese.

On the Russian front, we had Nina Talbot's character in Hogan's Heroes and Illya Kuryakin in Man From UNCLE. Both predate Chekov.

Cyke101 · December 22 2011, 06:43 PM

I'd like to point out that while Sulu was meant to be pan-Asian, his name itself is Filipino. Thus I'm stickin' to the idea that he's part-Filipino.

December 22 2011, 07:40 AM	#290
MasuPu'a Lieutenant	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

December 22 2011, 09:53 AM	#293
King Daniel Into Darkness Admiral Location: KingDaniel has fallen Into Darkness (in England)	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... However it came about, Trek's racial toerance message is a powerful one - and it's one that Star Trek '09 encapulates better than any Star Trek has before! There is more (human) racial diversity in this movie than any prior Star Trek one. Look around on Earth, on the Kelvin, at Starfleet Academy, and on the Enterprise. Case in point: Captain Robau. A Middle-Eastern guy commanding a Federation starship. Hell - even members of Nero's Romulan crew were given assorted lumps and bumps, indicating Romulan racial diversity.

December 22 2011, 10:16 AM	#294
J. Allen Probably Satan™ Location: A Quantum State	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... ^ It was definitely nice to see Romulans (as well as many other aliens) looking different. __________________ “In all of the time forward, and backward, throughout the universe, we have all been alive and dead, and all at the same time.”

December 22 2011, 06:43 PM	#300
Cyke101 Rear Admiral	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... I'd like to point out that while Sulu was meant to be pan-Asian, his name itself is Filipino. Thus I'm stickin' to the idea that he's part-Filipino. __________________ “You do not use science in order to prove yourself right, you use science in order to become right”

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