If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

[BillJ]

trek_futurist wrote:

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And the ratio of meaningful philosophical conundrums, scientific educational dialog and meaningful plots definitely outnumbers the ratio of meaningless plot-holes.

And your comparing one two-hour film against seven hundred episodes and ten feature films. It simply could never hope to compare.

[Chemahkuu]

The Dominion wrote:

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I was going to say, it would be reasonable (especially in the Trek universe) to assume that the blackhole it fell into was some weird anomaly that popped up in it's way.

More than likely, maybe a microwormhole that opened in the Kuiper region as the probe was passing by and opened out randomly near the Machine homeworld, or perhaps an artificial spatial opening they created.

[trek_futurist]

BillJ wrote:

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And your comparing one two-hour film against seven hundred episodes and ten feature films. It simply could never hope to compare.

NONE of the other films were philosophically or scientifically void.

You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.

[horatio83]

Yeah, vampires from the dark side of the moon taking over the Romulan empire was such a Spinozian theme.

[BillJ]

trek_futurist wrote:

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You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.

The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.

[Nerys Myk]

trek_futurist wrote:

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I have to defend the techno-babble as being scientifically rooted. It is not just made up jargon, especially since TOS and TNG had science advisors on hand to help with that process.

And the ratio of meaningful philosophical conundrums, scientific educational dialog and meaningful plots definitely outnumbers the ratio of meaningless plot-holes.

Their science advisors were often over ruled for the sake of drama and needs of the story. ST09 was no different. Though It's "reboot" is based on Many Worlds Interpretation. And as mentioned before the "black hole" used to travel in time is also based on scientific theory.

Made up stuff: Phasers, transporters, dilithium, viable human alien hybrids.....

[Nerys Myk]

BillJ wrote:

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The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.

What was Spock's line? "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny."

[BillJ]

Santa Kang wrote:

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Their science advisors were often over ruled for the sake of drama and needs of the story. ST09 was no different. Though It's "reboot" is based on Many Worlds Interpretation. And as mentioned before the "black hole" used to travel in time is also based on scientific theory.

Made up stuff: Phasers, transporters, dilithium, viable human alien hybrids.....

I'm not even sure he knows what he's arguing at this point.

[horatio83]

BillJ wrote:

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The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.

Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.
But what about a slightly different reading, NEM say that Picard would not have ended up as Shinzon did if he were in his shoes and ST09 says that Kirk ends up as Kirk even if a nasty Rommie kills his daddy. In other words, human subjectivity, the essence of Kirk and Picard, is basically independent of external circumstances. I like this reading not because it is really accurate but because it shows that from one angle free will and fate are not opposites but coincide.

[BillJ]

horatio83 wrote:

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Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.

Thinking about it a little more I think both films promote the idea of fate. Shinzon may have come up under far different circumstances than Picard but he still rose to be a powerful leader of men. Only the morality of the two characters are different.

[sonak]

BillJ wrote:

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Thinking about it a little more I think both films promote the idea of fate. Shinzon may have come up under far different circumstances than Picard but he still rose to be a powerful leader of men. Only the morality of the two characters are different.

that's a pretty big "only."

[BillJ]

sonak wrote:

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that's a pretty big "only."

But regardless of situation a baby Picard is going to rise to lead others. Of course morality is going to be different because Shinzon only knew of Romulan/Reman morality.

[Peach Wookiee]

trek_futurist wrote:

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That was not described as a time portal! Please educate yourself more.

And didn't someone say it was NOT okay to name call on this forum?

I have not called a person a name once and this person gets away with it? Talk about bias.

Okay, guys, break it up. Chem, a friendly word and a friendly warning.. please refrain from namecalling, even mild if you can. trek_futurist, in future, please refrain from bias until a moderator has had reasonable time to receive and read and decide on a course of action. Contrary to popular myth, Trekkies have lives.

[nightwind1]

trek_futurist wrote:

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Star trek 2009 is NOT a star trek movie, it is a movie for people who hate star trek, to insult the real essence of star trek with. It is pure garbage for the masses and people with short attention spans who will just as easily like transformers and twilight.

Bullshit.

I've been a Star Trek fan since 1966, when I was 5 years old. I have more money invested in Trek novels, behind-the-scenes books, comics, collectors glasses, games, artwork, clothing, et al, than I do in my house and truck. I've had 2 Trek fan fiction stories published, one of which won "Best Star Trek Fiction of the Year" at MediaWest, the country's largest fan-fiction convention.

I LOVED ST09. So obviously, your opinion amounts to the stuff I clean up after my dog when he eats roadkill.

[nightwind1]

[QUOTE=trek_futurist;5461579]

horatio83 wrote:

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The humor in TOS was a lot more subtle and interesting than the gratuitous and generic 'slap stick' garbage witnessed in the 2009 thing.

"Subtle"? A Piece of the Action was "subtle"? The Trouble with Tribbles was "subtle"? Mudd's Women was "subtle"?

About as subtle as you're ignorance.