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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 21 2011, 09:07 PM   #211
BillJ
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post

And the ratio of meaningful philosophical conundrums, scientific educational dialog and meaningful plots definitely outnumbers the ratio of meaningless plot-holes.
And your comparing one two-hour film against seven hundred episodes and ten feature films. It simply could never hope to compare.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:08 PM   #212
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

The Dominion wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
It was never clarified in the film that it wasn't also displaced in time, the novel of the film implies the probe was thrown centuries into the past. The "black hole" in question would also have been close to or even at the edge of our solar system, possibly some short lived event, so we already have a precedant of this phenomena, naturally occuring even, as far back as 1979 (2273).
I was going to say, it would be reasonable (especially in the Trek universe) to assume that the blackhole it fell into was some weird anomaly that popped up in it's way.
More than likely, maybe a microwormhole that opened in the Kuiper region as the probe was passing by and opened out randomly near the Machine homeworld, or perhaps an artificial spatial opening they created.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:12 PM   #213
trek_futurist
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post

And the ratio of meaningful philosophical conundrums, scientific educational dialog and meaningful plots definitely outnumbers the ratio of meaningless plot-holes.
And your comparing one two-hour film against seven hundred episodes and ten feature films. It simply could never hope to compare.
NONE of the other films were philosophically or scientifically void.

You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:15 PM   #214
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Yeah, vampires from the dark side of the moon taking over the Romulan empire was such a Spinozian theme.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:16 PM   #215
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post

You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.
The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:20 PM   #216
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post

So star trek was philosophically void, scientifically void, morally void, spiritually void, ideologically void all this time and 'we' didn't know it?
It's not one or the other. Star Trek has been full of philosophy and science and morals, but it's also been full of plotholes, technobabble, explosions, and crazy battles.
I have to defend the techno-babble as being scientifically rooted. It is not just made up jargon, especially since TOS and TNG had science advisors on hand to help with that process.

And the ratio of meaningful philosophical conundrums, scientific educational dialog and meaningful plots definitely outnumbers the ratio of meaningless plot-holes.
Their science advisors were often over ruled for the sake of drama and needs of the story. ST09 was no different. Though It's "reboot" is based on Many Worlds Interpretation. And as mentioned before the "black hole" used to travel in time is also based on scientific theory.

Made up stuff: Phasers, transporters, dilithium, viable human alien hybrids.....
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Old December 21 2011, 09:23 PM   #217
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post

You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.
The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.
What was Spock's line? "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny."
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Old December 21 2011, 09:24 PM   #218
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post

Their science advisors were often over ruled for the sake of drama and needs of the story. ST09 was no different. Though It's "reboot" is based on Many Worlds Interpretation. And as mentioned before the "black hole" used to travel in time is also based on scientific theory.

Made up stuff: Phasers, transporters, dilithium, viable human alien hybrids.....
I'm not even sure he knows what he's arguing at this point.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:25 PM   #219
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post

You can this, effectively, compare this film unfavorably to any of the other trek films and prove the points I made earlier.

Yes, that includes star trek V too, believe it or not.
The funniest thing about your argument is that Star Trek 2009 and Nemesis hit some of the same philosophical notes about nature vs. environment in a persons development. They may disagree about the outcome but are hitting the same points just the same.
Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.
But what about a slightly different reading, NEM say that Picard would not have ended up as Shinzon did if he were in his shoes and ST09 says that Kirk ends up as Kirk even if a nasty Rommie kills his daddy. In other words, human subjectivity, the essence of Kirk and Picard, is basically independent of external circumstances. I like this reading not because it is really accurate but because it shows that from one angle free will and fate are not opposites but coincide.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:31 PM   #220
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

horatio83 wrote: View Post

Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.
Thinking about it a little more I think both films promote the idea of fate. Shinzon may have come up under far different circumstances than Picard but he still rose to be a powerful leader of men. Only the morality of the two characters are different.
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Old December 21 2011, 09:33 PM   #221
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.
Thinking about it a little more I think both films promote the idea of fate. Shinzon may have come up under far different circumstances than Picard but he still rose to be a powerful leader of men. Only the morality of the two characters are different.

that's a pretty big "only."
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Old December 21 2011, 09:38 PM   #222
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

sonak wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

Indeed, NEM seems to entertain the idea of free will whereas ST09 seems to entertain the idea of fate.
Thinking about it a little more I think both films promote the idea of fate. Shinzon may have come up under far different circumstances than Picard but he still rose to be a powerful leader of men. Only the morality of the two characters are different.


that's a pretty big "only."

But regardless of situation a baby Picard is going to rise to lead others. Of course morality is going to be different because Shinzon only knew of Romulan/Reman morality.
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Old December 21 2011, 11:07 PM   #223
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
He means the black hole Voyager 6 fell into, not the warp imbalance wormhole the Enterprise engines created, nitwit.
That was not described as a time portal! Please educate yourself more.

And didn't someone say it was NOT okay to name call on this forum?

I have not called a person a name once and this person gets away with it? Talk about bias.
Okay, guys, break it up. Chem, a friendly word and a friendly warning.. please refrain from namecalling, even mild if you can. trek_futurist, in future, please refrain from bias until a moderator has had reasonable time to receive and read and decide on a course of action. Contrary to popular myth, Trekkies have lives.
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Old December 21 2011, 11:25 PM   #224
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
Star trek 2009 is NOT a star trek movie, it is a movie for people who hate star trek, to insult the real essence of star trek with. It is pure garbage for the masses and people with short attention spans who will just as easily like transformers and twilight.
Bullshit.

I've been a Star Trek fan since 1966, when I was 5 years old. I have more money invested in Trek novels, behind-the-scenes books, comics, collectors glasses, games, artwork, clothing, et al, than I do in my house and truck. I've had 2 Trek fan fiction stories published, one of which won "Best Star Trek Fiction of the Year" at MediaWest, the country's largest fan-fiction convention.

I LOVED ST09. So obviously, your opinion amounts to the stuff I clean up after my dog when he eats roadkill.
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Old December 21 2011, 11:30 PM   #225
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

[QUOTE=trek_futurist;5461579]
horatio83 wrote: View Post
The humor in TOS was a lot more subtle and interesting than the gratuitous and generic 'slap stick' garbage witnessed in the 2009 thing.
"Subtle"? A Piece of the Action was "subtle"? The Trouble with Tribbles was "subtle"? Mudd's Women was "subtle"?

About as subtle as you're ignorance.
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