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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 21 2011, 06:15 PM   #151
trek_futurist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

The Overlord wrote: View Post
The thing is while on the surface Nemesis and Star Trek 11 similar, but if you dig deeper Star Trek 11 is a superior film.

Let's compare the villains for example, on the surface both Shinzon and Nero seem the very similar, both associated with the Romulan empire and both new villains with a genocidal desire for vengeance. However I think below the surface Nero is a way better villain due to consistency. There was a method to Nero's madness, since Spock failed to save Romulus Nero blames Spock for Romulus' destruction, he may even think Spock intentionally did not save Romulus. That's not rational, but it does make sense in a certain way.

With Shinzon I don't understand his motives at all, its like he changes his mind every 5 minutes and he is totally incompetent. He's mad that the Romulans enslaved the Remans, so he wants to destroy Earth. That makes no sense. He wants to capture Picard because he needs a blood transfusion, but he wastes a lot of time at the beginning of the film, instead of trying to capture Picard right away. Nero is a better villain because his goals don't change every 5 minutes.

Also the TNG crew did a lot of foolish things in Nemesis, if we are going to count mis-characterization against a film. Picard breaks the Prime Directive and guns down some aliens for no good reason and at the end of the film he endangers the entire ship by going over to fight Shinzon on his ship, instead of sending Worf or Date who would have a greater chance for success then Picard would. I wouldn't call Nemesis a crowning moment for characterization of the TNG crew.

As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.

What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?

YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?

I basically answered my own question there.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:18 PM   #152
F. King Daniel
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
The thing is while on the surface Nemesis and Star Trek 11 similar, but if you dig deeper Star Trek 11 is a superior film.

Let's compare the villains for example, on the surface both Shinzon and Nero seem the very similar, both associated with the Romulan empire and both new villains with a genocidal desire for vengeance. However I think below the surface Nero is a way better villain due to consistency. There was a method to Nero's madness, since Spock failed to save Romulus Nero blames Spock for Romulus' destruction, he may even think Spock intentionally did not save Romulus. That's not rational, but it does make sense in a certain way.

With Shinzon I don't understand his motives at all, its like he changes his mind every 5 minutes and he is totally incompetent. He's mad that the Romulans enslaved the Remans, so he wants to destroy Earth. That makes no sense. He wants to capture Picard because he needs a blood transfusion, but he wastes a lot of time at the beginning of the film, instead of trying to capture Picard right away. Nero is a better villain because his goals don't change every 5 minutes.

Also the TNG crew did a lot of foolish things in Nemesis, if we are going to count mis-characterization against a film. Picard breaks the Prime Directive and guns down some aliens for no good reason and at the end of the film he endangers the entire ship by going over to fight Shinzon on his ship, instead of sending Worf or Date who would have a greater chance for success then Picard would. I wouldn't call Nemesis a crowning moment for characterization of the TNG crew.

As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.

What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?

YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?

I basically answered my own question there.
Nero didn't have a time machine. I think you've just proven how little you understood ST'09
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Old December 21 2011, 06:19 PM   #153
trek_futurist
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Those aren't facts, sorry. They're merely what YOU like about Star Trek, and what YOU believe is lacking in the 09 film.

No, they are what made star trek popular and what was DEFINITELY and WITHOUT A SHRED OF DOUBT lacking in the thing called star trek 2009.

Not to mention something called logic. Star trek always had logic, at least with regard to human interactions, ideology and chain of command.

How the HELL can anyone just shrug off imposter kirk being promoted to captain from cadet so haphazardly?

Quite simply, if you think star trek 2009 is a star trek movie you are obviously more a fan of bombastic action films than actually star trek itself.
Without a shred of doubt in your mind. You're not a god, your opinion is only that - your opinion. Does that mass of support for the movie not show you that maybe others' viewpoint could have some validity? That your narrow-minded way may not be the only one?

Fans shrug off the sillier aspects of this movie the same way fans have shrugged off the implausible nonsense in other Star Treks. Genesis? Spock's resurrection? The Nexus? The various portrayals of time travel? V'ger, a probe with godlike powers that never thought to wipe the muck of it's own name plate?

Heck, we even saw another cadet-turned-captain in DS9's "The Valiant". And that one didn't have Pike's glowing recommendation and a Vulcan from an alternate future on his side!
Are you kidding me? Those things don't even compare.

Genesis is a brilliant concept, and terra-forming became a burgeoning scientific concept in my childhood (mid-late 90s) which means that star trek, once again was filled with insights of the future of science. Spocks body being sequestered to the Genesis planet only extends its use as a place of regeneration. At least the film explains that. The 2009 thing makes absolutely no effort to explain the arbitrary nature of red matter. It just happens to be able to blow up planets AND make you travel back in time, just cuz the writers need it to. Convenient plot device. In other words, complete non-sense.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:20 PM   #154
horatio83
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.

What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?

YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?

I basically answered my own question there.
Using the word "fact" when talking about art and using sentences written entirely in capital letters, the written equivalent of shouting, disqualify anybody from a serious discussion.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:21 PM   #155
Robert D. Robot
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?
Hmmm ... After reading all these posts, I think the OP may actually have quite a bit in common with Nero....
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Old December 21 2011, 06:23 PM   #156
Geoff Peterson
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Whether done en mass of individually calling people infantile is a bad thing and counter to the philosophy Star Trek allegedly espouses. ( generalizations are rarely a good thing) You've pretty much lost any argument from the start when you do that.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:23 PM   #157
trek_futurist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
The thing is while on the surface Nemesis and Star Trek 11 similar, but if you dig deeper Star Trek 11 is a superior film.

Let's compare the villains for example, on the surface both Shinzon and Nero seem the very similar, both associated with the Romulan empire and both new villains with a genocidal desire for vengeance. However I think below the surface Nero is a way better villain due to consistency. There was a method to Nero's madness, since Spock failed to save Romulus Nero blames Spock for Romulus' destruction, he may even think Spock intentionally did not save Romulus. That's not rational, but it does make sense in a certain way.

With Shinzon I don't understand his motives at all, its like he changes his mind every 5 minutes and he is totally incompetent. He's mad that the Romulans enslaved the Remans, so he wants to destroy Earth. That makes no sense. He wants to capture Picard because he needs a blood transfusion, but he wastes a lot of time at the beginning of the film, instead of trying to capture Picard right away. Nero is a better villain because his goals don't change every 5 minutes.

Also the TNG crew did a lot of foolish things in Nemesis, if we are going to count mis-characterization against a film. Picard breaks the Prime Directive and guns down some aliens for no good reason and at the end of the film he endangers the entire ship by going over to fight Shinzon on his ship, instead of sending Worf or Date who would have a greater chance for success then Picard would. I wouldn't call Nemesis a crowning moment for characterization of the TNG crew.

As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.

What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?

YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?

I basically answered my own question there.
Nero didn't have a time machine. I think you've just proven how little you understood ST'09
What I meant is that 'the red matter' allows him to travel back in time through the creation of a black hole (what, really?) the red matter is thus effectively, as a PLOT DEVICE a time machine.

Why not travel back just before your planet is destroyed, and fix the problem, instead of conveniently travel back to the mid 23rd century?
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Old December 21 2011, 06:25 PM   #158
Geoff Peterson
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Because he has no control over where the black hole sends him.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:26 PM   #159
The Overlord
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
.

As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.[/QUOTE]

How? You can't just say that without back it up.

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?
And Shinzon is a villain who wants to destroy Earth for no good reason and is about as competent as Dr. Evil. I'm not saying Nero is the best Star trek villain ever, he isn't, but he is better Shinzon, who I would rank really low.

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
YOU HAVE TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?
It doesn't work like that, they were thrown back at a random point in time, this tech isn't a time machine that controls where you go.

And if you want point out plot holes, you haven't addressed any of the ones I brought up with Shinzon.


trek_futurist wrote: View Post
I basically answered my own question there.
No you haven't.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:33 PM   #160
trek_futurist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
Because he has no control over where the black hole sends him.
But spock prime does! He has a time ship!

He can go back in time right before nero's planet was destroyed, fix the problem and thus never necessitate the rest of the events of the film!

Oh right, I keep forgetting that JJ and company like to insult peoples intelligence with useless plot devices.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:34 PM   #161
trek_futurist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

The Overlord wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post
.

As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.
How? You can't just say that without back it up.

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?
And Shinzon is a villain who wants to destroy Earth for no good reason and is about as competent as Dr. Evil. I'm not saying Nero is the best Star trek villain ever, he isn't, but he is better Shinzon, who I would rank really low.

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
YOU HAVE TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?
It doesn't work like that, they were thrown back at a random point in time, this tech isn't a time machine that controls where you go.

And if you want point out plot holes, you haven't addressed any of the ones I brought up with Shinzon.


trek_futurist wrote: View Post
I basically answered my own question there.
No you haven't.[/QUOTE]

But spock prime can use his time ship for the same purpose! Thus, I say to you, this is a useless plot device. And an insult to the intelligence of anybody who can count to 10.

EDIT: Please learn to properly use the quoting system instead of creating these incoherent strings. All I am doing is quoting, did no editing at all to this except adding this comment. Did not edit the quote tags at all.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:35 PM   #162
trek_futurist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Not sure what happened to the quoting system there, but it was a random anomaly.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:35 PM   #163
Geoff Peterson
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
Because he has no control over where the black hole sends him.
But spock prime does! He has a time ship!

He can go back in time right before nero's planet was destroyed, fix the problem and thus never necessitate the rest of the events of the film!

Oh right, I keep forgetting that JJ and company like to insult peoples intelligence with useless plot devices.
No, he doesn't. He has a ship that is really fast and carries Red Matter.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:36 PM   #164
F. King Daniel
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

trek_futurist wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post


As a matter of fact shinzon is a much more sophisticated and complex character than nero.

What is nero but a baby throwing an intergalactic tantrum?

YOU HAVE A TIME MACHINE! WHY NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND USE THE TIME MACHINE TO FIX WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PLANET INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A WHINY BABY WHO HAS TO DESTROY THE FEDERATION JUST CAUSE JJ ABRAMS NEEDS SOMETHING IDIOTIC TO FILL IN A GAPING PLOT HOLE?

I basically answered my own question there.
Nero didn't have a time machine. I think you've just proven how little you understood ST'09
What I meant is that 'the red matter' allows him to travel back in time through the creation of a black hole (what, really?) the red matter is thus effectively, as a PLOT DEVICE a time machine.

Why not travel back just before your planet is destroyed, and fix the problem, instead of conveniently travel back to the mid 23rd century?
Because the time travel in the movie was accidental and uncontolled. Because, as the film depicted clearly, the black holes are extremely dangerous and unstable.

Again, you're showing how little you understood the movie.

Also: How dare they not explain Red Matter! They detail for us how it works, just like Trek did with dilithi... oh. And how phas.... um. And Thaler....oops.
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Old December 21 2011, 06:39 PM   #165
F. King Daniel
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Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009....

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
trek_futurist wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
Because he has no control over where the black hole sends him.
But spock prime does! He has a time ship!

He can go back in time right before nero's planet was destroyed, fix the problem and thus never necessitate the rest of the events of the film!

Oh right, I keep forgetting that JJ and company like to insult peoples intelligence with useless plot devices.
No, he doesn't. He has a ship that is really fast and carries Red Matter.
This. Nowhere is the ship referred to or even implied to be a time ship. It's fast and carries the red matter Spock used to create a black hole to absorb the exploing star.

Clueless troll is clueless.
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