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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 19 2011, 04:38 PM   #556
DonIago
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I have to wonder whether in a future of replicators and transporters and FTL drives people would really place the same value on a home that they do today. No doubt moving would still be an ordeal, but it's not like you have to wait months for a building to be constructed.

Anyway, given that the settlers chose to live on worlds that they knew were on the frontier, I found it a little unwarranted how bent out of shape they got when problems that they must have known might occur did, in fact, occur.
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Old December 19 2011, 04:41 PM   #557
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I don't think it was that they were economically tied to those planets, as many people would be today. Like you said, in a world with FTL drives, transporters and replicators, relocation would be fairly simply.

It was that they were emotionally tied to those homes. They built something out of nothing, raised families there and didn't want to just leave it all behind to start up again somewhere else.

But besides that, it's their property and the Federation just swooped in and ordered them to hand it over. Many people would have a problem if their own government did that to them.
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Old December 19 2011, 04:47 PM   #558
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Maquis, Part 2 (****)

I suppose I should comment on the character of Cal Hudson. What a boring character. For a guy that decides to leave behind his whole life because he believes in a cause, he sure does seem disinterested in all the events that are going down. He's the least impassioned rebel I've seen on television. The only way I can explain his reasoning for joining the Maquis is that he was so distraught by his wife's death that he chose to run away from Starfleet, much like Sisko was considering doing in Emissary, and joining the Maquis was just his excuse. Even still, I find it hard to believe that this guy could have such passion for his wife that he would throw everything away out of grief. Just imagine him making love to his wife... "Oh yeah. Uh-huh. That's right. Keep going... Okay, I'm done. Goodnight dear."

But the bigger problem with Cal is that his whole arc feels artificial, especially his friendship with Sisko. Here's a guy that we never heard from before that was brought into the show to add a personal element to Sisko's dilemma and to help us see the Maquis' point of view. He's not really successful at either, and the fact that he's forgotten about until his death is referenced by another character years later makes his friendship with Sisko seem all the more artificial.

It's a good thing then that he's not in this episode much and most of it focuses on good things, such as interstellar politics and Gul Dukat. Once again, Dukat shines in this episode, he's working with the heroes because the alternatives are exile or execution. There's even something of a rapport developing between him and Sisko, and even a little begrudging respect seeps out of Kira. You've got the politicking Cardassians, Quark teaching logic to a Vulcan, some high-stakes action, this episode has a lot going for it. The ending, where Sisko fears that all he has done is delay an inevitable war is a little chilling. Sure, the war he's thinking of isn't exactly the war that happens later in the show, but the Maquis were one of the elements that drove the Cardassians into siding with the Dominion, so he's right in a roundabout way.

Sykonee's Counter: 13

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Old December 19 2011, 04:59 PM   #559
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It's very telling that we never saw Cal Hudson again throughout the rest of the series, as he just fell a bit flat really. Therefore, you get the double impact of having the Federation/Cardassian treaty coming out of nowhere, as well as Sisko's friendship with Hudson.

Aside from this though, I love everything else about thw two-parter, as it was much more in line with what I wanted from the show.

Oh and I clicked on the first thing that came up and it didn't work. I'm useless at life!

(Unless you were referring to the Star Wars thing, which is very funny! )

However, I did find this on the image search instead! The text is small but I read it without my glasses!

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Old December 19 2011, 05:50 PM   #560
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Here's a fun experiment; type "admiral bitch" into Google and read the suggestions.
Hahaha, win.

I always hoped Nechayev or whatever would get shot by a Jem'Hadar (Just like I had always hoped the Intendant would take a phaser beam set to kill to the face).
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Old December 19 2011, 06:05 PM   #561
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The great part about this episode is that its part of a larger tapestry about the gradual demoralizing and decay of the Cardassian Union. The Cardassians might have been provoking the colonists, but even their typical shift toward brutality fails to quell the rebellion within their border. As much as the Federation dislikes the Maquis and distrusts the Cardassians...the Maqui do serve the purpose of undermining Cardassian authority rather publicly. When you factor in the Cardassians forced with withdrawals from Bajor and what we learn about the poor conditions on Cardassia Prime under military rule...what we are shown is a society that is in deep decline. Its not surprising that the military government would be overthrown...and that would lead to even more instability. The eventual invasion by the Klingons was essentially the final straw. It makes their eventual absorption into the Dominion seem logical.

All that said...while all of this is good stuff, its ironic that all this was set up for the sole purpose of creating the Maquis...and thus providing a hostile element for Voyager. Its sad that all this work would be for nothing since Voyager would ditch the whole concept by the end of its pilot. So DS9 would reap the benefits of a storyline created for Voyager simply because DS9 had writers that were committed to the concept.
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Old December 19 2011, 07:42 PM   #562
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I don't think it was that they were economically tied to those planets, as many people would be today. Like you said, in a world with FTL drives, transporters and replicators, relocation would be fairly simply.

It was that they were emotionally tied to those homes. They built something out of nothing, raised families there and didn't want to just leave it all behind to start up again somewhere else.

But besides that, it's their property and the Federation just swooped in and ordered them to hand it over. Many people would have a problem if their own government did that to them.
I wasn't just speaking in terms of economic value. I don't get emotionally attached to a calculator partly because I know I can easily get another one if I have to. In the Federation, homes aren't at a premium (not as I understand the Federation, anyhow).

As someone who lives fairly close to an airport, I wonder whether the settlers may have been implicitly or explicitly there under any sort of eminent domain agreement.

In any case, it makes about as much sense to me personally as choosing to live in Iraq and then being upset when violence happens. If you're going to choose to live on the frontier, you may have to face the consequences of it. And as far as we know, nobody was there involuntarily...heck, Journey's End was all about settler relocation...and some other minor plot point I can't recall...
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Old December 19 2011, 08:14 PM   #563
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Here's a fun experiment; type "admiral bitch" into Google and read the suggestions.
I always think of admiral Nechayav has admiral Bitchayav, she seemed so... unlikeable.
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Old December 19 2011, 08:14 PM   #564
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
All that said...while all of this is good stuff, its ironic that all this was set up for the sole purpose of creating the Maquis...and thus providing a hostile element for Voyager. Its sad that all this work would be for nothing since Voyager would ditch the whole concept by the end of its pilot. So DS9 would reap the benefits of a storyline created for Voyager simply because DS9 had writers that were committed to the concept.
This is all true. It's sad that VOY completely abandoned the concept of the Starfleet vs. the Maquis by the end of its first season (you can see the seeds already in the pilot when Chuckles shows up on the bridge in a Starfleet uniform).

It really blows my mind that all this trouble was went through just to create something for VOY (setting it up on TNG, properly introducing it here on DS9, revisiting it in the penultimate TNG episode, revisiting it again in the penultimate episode of DS9 Season Two) just so that they wouldn't have to burden VOY with massive amounts of exposition and then to have DS9 do so much more with it when DS9's showrunners wanted nothing to do with in the first place.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I wasn't just speaking in terms of economic value. I don't get emotionally attached to a calculator partly because I know I can easily get another one if I have to. In the Federation, homes aren't at a premium (not as I understand the Federation, anyhow).

As someone who lives fairly close to an airport, I wonder whether the settlers may have been implicitly or explicitly there under any sort of eminent domain agreement.

In any case, it makes about as much sense to me personally as choosing to live in Iraq and then being upset when violence happens. If you're going to choose to live on the frontier, you may have to face the consequences of it. And as far as we know, nobody was there involuntarily...heck, Journey's End was all about settler relocation...and some other minor plot point I can't recall...
So, are you saying that you wouldn't take offense if you lived in Poland in 1938 and the government came to you and said "We've decided to give your home, your land and all your family's possessions to the Nazis so they won't invade us and you have no say in it. But don't worry, we're going to relocate you to somewhere else. And, if you resist, we'll help the Nazis hunt you down and throw you in prison."?
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Old December 19 2011, 10:03 PM   #565
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
So, are you saying that you wouldn't take offense if you lived in Poland in 1938 and the government came to you and said "We've decided to give your home, your land and all your family's possessions to the Nazis so they won't invade us and you have no say in it. But don't worry, we're going to relocate you to somewhere else. And, if you resist, we'll help the Nazis hunt you down and throw you in prison."?
Wow, Godwin is spinning...

If they said, "Either you can move to a place that's at least as nice as where you're living now, and we'll cover all your expenses, and pay you a hefty fee for the inconvenience of you having to give up your home, or you can stay here with the understanding that you're no longer under our jurisdiction and we can't guarantee your safety, though we'll try? Oh and by the way, you're helping to avert a war and saving a whole lotta lives either way?"

Yeah, I think I could live with that.

The end of your quote is particularly facetious given that the settlers were (or should have been) allowed to continue living peacefully as long as they didn't mind being under Cardassian rule. While the normal settlers might have had to deal with some attacks (and let's not pretend this didn't occur on both sides), the Federation and Cardassians were not teaming up to attack people who just wanted to live in peace, they were teaming up to attack people who were actively engaging in terrorism and threatening a peace that was, at least in theory, saving many more lives.

It may not be reasonable to ask people to give up their homes for "the greater good", but how reasonable is it to demand that your country go to war with a foreign power that -will cost many lives- just because you won't give up your home?

And, since it always seems to get lost in the shuffle (no bias I'm sure...) I'll reiterate that it wasn't just Federation settlers who "lost" their planets.
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Old December 19 2011, 10:14 PM   #566
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You're finally doing the DS9 review thread? Well, I'll be following it from now on! Let me just put my manly purple hat on to celebrate.
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Old December 19 2011, 10:46 PM   #567
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
You're finally doing the DS9 review thread? Well, I'll be following it from now on! Let me just put my manly purple hat on to celebrate.
Hi there apenpaap; I haven't seen you around for a while. Been busy?
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Old December 19 2011, 10:48 PM   #568
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yeah, it's been a while. I haven't really been into Trek much lately (the past two years, I guess), though this thread has rekindled my interest into rewatching DS9 soon.
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Old December 19 2011, 10:54 PM   #569
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
So, are you saying that you wouldn't take offense if you lived in Poland in 1938 and the government came to you and said "We've decided to give your home, your land and all your family's possessions to the Nazis so they won't invade us and you have no say in it. But don't worry, we're going to relocate you to somewhere else. And, if you resist, we'll help the Nazis hunt you down and throw you in prison."?
Wow, Godwin is spinning...

If they said, "Either you can move to a place that's at least as nice as where you're living now, and we'll cover all your expenses, and pay you a hefty fee for the inconvenience of you having to give up your home, or you can stay here with the understanding that you're no longer under our jurisdiction and we can't guarantee your safety, though we'll try? Oh and by the way, you're helping to avert a war and saving a whole lotta lives either way?"

Yeah, I think I could live with that.

The end of your quote is particularly facetious given that the settlers were (or should have been) allowed to continue living peacefully as long as they didn't mind being under Cardassian rule. While the normal settlers might have had to deal with some attacks (and let's not pretend this didn't occur on both sides), the Federation and Cardassians were not teaming up to attack people who just wanted to live in peace, they were teaming up to attack people who were actively engaging in terrorism and threatening a peace that was, at least in theory, saving many more lives.

It may not be reasonable to ask people to give up their homes for "the greater good", but how reasonable is it to demand that your country go to war with a foreign power that -will cost many lives- just because you won't give up your home?

And, since it always seems to get lost in the shuffle (no bias I'm sure...) I'll reiterate that it wasn't just Federation settlers who "lost" their planets.
I tend to agree with this sentiment.

From my understanding of the peace treaty between the Cardassian Union and the UFP. Several planets on both sides would swap. So some former worlds under Cardassian jurisdiction would swith to UFP and vice versa.

As evidence from TNG "Joureny's End", the Federation view at the end is 'we won't force you to relocte, but you give up your Federation Citizenship. Any request have to come through the Cardassians. Gul Evek seemed to imply that the Cardassian viewpoint was so long as you don't bother us we don't care.

To those that think the treaty was wrong. I have a question.

How do you justify to the hundreds of billions if not close to a Trillion citizens of the Federation that sorry citizens a few million people who might be incovenianced by it so we won't sign the treaty. Yes it might cost millions of lifes, hundreds of starships lost, planetry devesation to numerous worlds but the needs of the few out weigh the needs of the many.

Yes the treaty might not be perfect, but like any negotation it's a little bit o give and take. No doubt there were aspects of the traty that the Cardassians didn't like.
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Old December 20 2011, 01:26 PM   #570
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
The end of your quote is particularly facetious given that the settlers were (or should have been) allowed to continue living peacefully as long as they didn't mind being under Cardassian rule. While the normal settlers might have had to deal with some attacks (and let's not pretend this didn't occur on both sides), the Federation and Cardassians were not teaming up to attack people who just wanted to live in peace, they were teaming up to attack people who were actively engaging in terrorism and threatening a peace that was, at least in theory, saving many more lives.
But that's not what is going on. The Central Command is actively arming and assisting the Cardassian settlers in the DMZ. Is the Federation actively doing the same for the Federation colonists? No. The Maquis were living peacefully until they were attacked by the Cardassians. In response, they began to defend themselves and Starfleet/the Federation basically came in and said "Oh, no you don't!" If the UFP was really willing to let them live in the DMZ with the understanding that they would receive no assistance from Starfleet, then they shouldn't act against them when they defend themselves against Cardassian aggression. The best course of action for the Federation would have to been to leave the Maquis and the Cardassians to their own devices.

And, since it always seems to get lost in the shuffle (no bias I'm sure...) I'll reiterate that it wasn't just Federation settlers who "lost" their planets.
Yet there was no need for the "lost" Cardassian planets to rise up and engage in terrorism. They were protected by the Federation, which had no intent to harm them, unlike how the Cardassian government felt about the Federation's "lost" planets.
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