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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 17 2011, 10:57 PM   #541
Ln X
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[QUOTE=Admiral Shran;5438275]
Ln X wrote: View Post
That's something that always bothered me when Vic Fontaine showed up in the last seasons. Shadowplay goes out of it's why to show that holograms can be sentient just as organic beings can be, yet everyone either has to convinced that Vic is "alive" or never accept it. But then, I never got the whole "holograms can't be real" argument, either here or on VOY. This is a society that fully accepts an android as an equal. Accepting sentient holograms shouldn't be that big of a jump for them.
Well an android is real, you can actually touch him, but with a hologram he's just energy and forcefields. I think for many people real is what you can touch which is solid, can a person have a soul without substance? Another thing is that holograms and androids have computer programs to generate their sentience. While people in the late 24th century could accept an android to have sentience, I think a hologram is an even further stretch of their imagination for how their AI can go.
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Old December 18 2011, 02:37 AM   #542
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It's not like it's anything present-day society hasn't dealt with.

Women aren't equal, African-Americans aren't equal, Homosexuals aren't equal...we aren't doing such a great job of learning from our past in this regard.
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Old December 18 2011, 04:40 AM   #543
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Well the Android situation is kind of different, since Data is a more complicated program than the Holograms.
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Old December 18 2011, 04:41 PM   #544
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Maquis, Part 1 (****)

Over the last few weeks I've seen stories about imaginary women, shape-shifting monsters, a racquet-ball game, a replicant assassin, and an entire micro-universe, and in that time nobody thought to mention a new treaty between the Federation and the Cardassians, Federation colonists choosing to remain in Cardassian space, or the newly-established demilitarised zone. That's pretty odd for a show set along the border of Cardassian space. I know the reason why none of this stuff was shown on DS9, it's because it was all handled on TNG in an episode that was mainly about Wesley (which meant that a good 60% of the audience turned it off and hid behind the couch). I'm not opposed to having the two shows containing interlinked story arcs, but there should have at least have been some acknowledgement on DS9 that these events were happening before using them as the foundation of a universe-altering event-episode. The result of not doing so is that this episode feels rushed and many early scenes are heavy on exposition.

That being said, thank the gods that the show has finally returned to something with a little weight to it and where the consequences wont be forgotten about the following week. The Maquis are one of those ambiguous elements of DS9 where you don't know whether you should support them or vilify them. It was a terrible thing that the Federation did, signing away their homes to a brutal oppressor, but they did do it with the intention of creating a lasting peace with the Cardassians in the hope of saving lives in the long run. Both sides have a point, but our instinct is to side with Starfleet because they've always been portrayed as the "good guys", and that's Sisko's instinct too, so much so that he goes out of his way to ignore Kira when she dares to question Federation policy.

Another great ambiguous element of DS9 is Dukat, and this is the first episode where he's shown to be on the same side as the heroes. Even then, I can't be sure that he really is on the Federation's side and it seems likely that he just wants to pin the blame for the violence on the Federation colonists and not on the Cardassian government, which is probably the real reason why he's so annoyed by signs of Cardassian aggression as that somewhat legitimises the actions of the Maquis. It is great to watch Sisko and Dukat together, especially the way that Dukat enjoys pressing Sisko's buttons while claiming to act like a friend. You can see why they later decide to do almost an entire episode with these two sitting in a cave together.
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Old December 18 2011, 09:07 PM   #545
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I always sided with the Maquis and never understood why the Federation were such pussies with the Cardassians. From what we saw Starfleet was more mature, richer and had more resources and powerful ships than the Cardassians...and yet they negotiate a fairly unfavorable treaty. Perhaps it was a mistake making the Cardassians out to be fairly weak in the early TNG episodes in which they appeared.
I personally supported the Maquis.
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Old December 18 2011, 10:21 PM   #546
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

SFDebris does a really good review of "The Maquis" two-part where he points how stupid and unfair the treaty is .... you should check it out, there's a link on YT I'm sure.
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Old December 18 2011, 10:51 PM   #547
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Just curious, on what grounds is the treaty itself considered "unfair"? The Feds weren't the only ones to give up worlds after all.
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Old December 18 2011, 10:55 PM   #548
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Back when I first saw it with my teenaged eyes, I was heavily on the Federation's side - how could I be anything else when the series is centred around (mostly) Starfleet officers?

Over time of course when your views about life and the world are better informed/more cynical, then I tend to sympthise more with the Maquis. The Federation did a truly horrible thing, and it's one of the reasons that makes Voyager a little odd as a series with the crew getting on so well so quickly. How can such betrayal be forgiven so quickly?

The formation of The Maquis is a harrowing wake-up call for Starfleet, and indicates that hostilities with the Cardassians must have been pretty bad to make them resort to such a treaty. We've had some indication of what things were like through O'Brien in particular, but I agree that this episode just comes out of nowhere in DS9's universe. And yes I totally agree that Journey's End on TNG was hapless as the beginning of the Maquis arc.

But very good episodes altogether. The presence of Dukat here is welcomed, as him working with our guys muddies our expectations even further.
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Old December 19 2011, 01:09 AM   #549
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 Gal AZ wrote: View Post
SFDebris does a really good review of "The Maquis" two-part where he points how stupid and unfair the treaty is .... you should check it out, there's a link on YT I'm sure.
I've seen it (as I have all his Trek reviews) and he makes some good points, and all I can think to say is that that's realpolitik for you.

Using another example from Irish history, because that's what I know, the Irish leaders were willing to leave behind the Irish nationalists that lived in Northern Ireland following the War of Independence because that was the price for peace. The result of that was that dissidents in both communities joined paramilitary groups and fought against one another, including a limited amount of collusion between the security services on both sides with the paramilitary factions. But while this paramilitary war waged on for decades, both the British and Irish governments officially kept the peace even though they didn't like one another, because neither side was interested in a return to full-scale war.

However bad things get with the Maquis in the DMZ, it will still cost fewer lives than it would if Starfleet and the Central Command sent in their ships to duke it out. The peace is stupid, absolutely, but acting stupid is sometimes better than losing an arm.
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Old December 19 2011, 02:01 AM   #550
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
I always sided with the Maquis and never understood why the Federation were such pussies with the Cardassians. From what we saw Starfleet was more mature, richer and had more resources and powerful ships than the Cardassians...and yet they negotiate a fairly unfavorable treaty. Perhaps it was a mistake making the Cardassians out to be fairly weak in the early TNG episodes in which they appeared.
I personally supported the Maquis.
Don't forget that a dozen or more Federation colonies were handed over to the Cardassians, but the Cardassians had to hand over about the same number of their colonies. All of this as part of border/territory changes from the peace treaty. In an absolutetist sence the Federation didn't really lose anything and thus the treaty isn't unfair, plus they get peace. In that sense the treaty is perfect.

Only problem was many of the Federation colonists didn't want to leave their homes, thus exposing the flaw in the treaty. But looking at it from a strategic point of view, and TheGodBen alluded to this here, a few lost colonies is better than war right across the Federation/Cardassian border where many more worlds are threatened. Instead of tens of thousands of lives it becomes millions. In that respect the treaty was good for serving the needs of the majority.

Were those colonies 'betrayed' by the Federation? In all honesty yes, just because of some redrawing of the lines on the interplanetary map. Now the flaw in the Maquis strategy of attacking the Cardassians was that it would mean serious trouble for the colonies in Cardassian space. A bad situation would just get worst, the Cardassians were just looking for an excuse to exercise their brutal police state policies on those colonies, and that's what the Maquis gave them.

And then the Cardassians could claim they were maintaining 'law and order', and then pressurize the Federation into sorting out the mess to keep the peace treaty from being ripped to shreds. By attacking the Cardassians, the Maquis lost their only ally; the Federation.

Also as Sisko said to Eddington (some years later as the Maquis situation developed):

You know what I see out there, Mister Eddington? I see victims... But not of Cardassia or the Federation. Victims of you. The Maquis. You've sold these people the dream that one day, they can go back to those farms and homes and schools -- but you know they never can. And the longer you keep that hope alive, the longer they're going to suffer.
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Old December 19 2011, 02:45 AM   #551
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

But Starfleet was strong enough to put the Cardassians in a position where they would have given away much more allowing them to keep those worlds.
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Old December 19 2011, 04:08 AM   #552
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ignoring all alliances, the US would be capable of taking down France if it really wanted, but would the US government want to go through months of brutal slaughter and the deaths of tens of thousands of personnel (not to mention civilians) if there was an offer on the table that was "good enough"?
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Old December 19 2011, 06:14 AM   #553
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Ignoring all alliances, the US would be capable of taking down France if it really wanted, but would the US government want to go through months of brutal slaughter and the deaths of tens of thousands of personnel (not to mention civilians) if there was an offer on the table that was "good enough"?
Well, we could have avoided thousands of deaths in the Middle East by minding our own damn business (a far less questionable tack than surrendering a bunch of US citizens), but decided to invade Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan instead. I wouldn't put it past the prior or current administration to pick the war option instead.
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Old December 19 2011, 12:22 PM   #554
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
But Starfleet was strong enough to put the Cardassians in a position where they would have given away much more allowing them to keep those worlds.
But Starfleet and the Federation Council stick to their principles and the Federation charter (for the most part, Section 31 cough cough). To simply screw the Cardassians over with an unfair treaty is not very Starfleet like, and would fly in the face of the Federation's premise of peace, justice and prosperity for all. The Federation wants to work with neighbouring planetary states and not conquer them through military or diplomatic means.
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Old December 19 2011, 01:09 PM   #555
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
Well an android is real, you can actually touch him, but with a hologram he's just energy and forcefields. I think for many people real is what you can touch which is solid, can a person have a soul without substance? Another thing is that holograms and androids have computer programs to generate their sentience. While people in the late 24th century could accept an android to have sentience, I think a hologram is an even further stretch of their imagination for how their AI can go.
If we go that route, then I have a hard time understanding how they accept non-corporeal lifetimes as sentient and "alive." TOS goes so far as to say that certain non-corporeal aliens are full-blown members of the Federation. If they are willing to accept that they are "real" when they're essentially nothing more than energy, why not sentient holograms?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Ignoring all alliances, the US would be capable of taking down France if it really wanted, but would the US government want to go through months of brutal slaughter and the deaths of tens of thousands of personnel (not to mention civilians) if there was an offer on the table that was "good enough"?
Given the fact that just about everyone in both of our major parties is gung-ho for any war they can think of (I know of only two or three exceptions - out of the 536 main players in the U.S. national government), I'd say yes they would. There's also the fact that the current administration has escalated the war in Afghanistan, massively bombarded Libya, kept troops in Iraq until the Iraqi government told them to get the hell out and sent multiple drone attacks into Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen. Also, there's the fact that the media (both liberal and conservative) are more than willing to beat the drums for any war propaganda they're offered - just like the mouthpieces of the state they are.

But, as for The Maquis - when I first saw it, I was fully on the side of the Federation. Like TheGodBen said, they're the "good guys" after all. Now, I'm fully on the side of the Maquis. The UFP screwed these people big time. Even the Federation's justification is atrocious - they did it for the greater good. You can justify anything by saying it's for the greater good. The fact is that they sacrificed these people in order to make a pretty lousy treaty - as if peace at any price was acceptable. Even the Jem'Hadar know what a mistake the treaty was!

The episode itself, however, is excellent. One thing I'll point out, which I don't think anyone else has yet, is that I love that they had a Vulcan be one of the major Maquis players. It gives their side much more weight to see not only a non-Human but a Vulcan come to the conclusion that they are right and the UFP is wrong.
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