RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,782
Posts: 5,217,331
Members: 24,217
Currently online: 744
Newest member: davestar057

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 16 2011, 04:56 AM   #106
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

Cloaking/Stealth technology:

Early stealth involved camouflage with like natural objects, the first time troops were clothed in drab colors was in the 17th century, when British troops experimented with it. Submarines in the 18th and 19th century gave craft at sea the ability to hide from surface warships, reaching full potential in WWI and WWII. Dazzle camouflage was used in WWI and somewhat in WWII to confuse ships at sea in terms of rangefinding, not to keep them from being seen. Yehudi lights were used in WWII to brighten aircraft approach to blend in with a light sky. Radar rendered this approach obsolete, but then countermeasures were needed to confuse radar waves. Finally in 1958 the A12, later developed into the SR-71 had a measure of what we now think of as stealth technology both in shape and materials. Later stealth fighter methodologies turned from angular and slab-sided(Have Blue/F-117) to blended(F-22, F-23, F-35, B2 bomber), and this was eventually used on warships, such as the Skjold Class, Arleigh Burke and French Lafayette Class.

In the 1950s a US scientist first postulated a particle accelerator to block radar. In the 1960s, Project Oxcart attempted to block air inlets with an electron beam generator. The Soviet Union claimed a new "stealth" plasma device was being tested in 1999, both on aircraft and tanks, and in the early 2000s both the US and France also was working on the application of this for aircraft. The technology could form a layer or cloud of plasma around a vehicle to deflect or absorb radar, from simpler electrostatic or radio frequency discharges to more complex laser discharges. Newer methods may involve "meta-materials" that structure reflective properties of materials to mimic their surroundings. Scientists at Duke University were able to use a series of rings that propagate radio waves around an object so that the radiation entering the ring structure pass through with little interference, essentially rendering the object less visible in the presence of radio waves.

In SF early stories of invisibilty include 1859's "What Was It" about a natural invisible creature. Several other stories appeared before HG Well's popular "Invisble Man". He also posits moving very fast will cause one to be invisible in his "The New Accelerator", adapted by the BBC BBC Wells . In 1939, invisible aliens appeared in "Sinister Barrier". In 1966, Star Trek took the idea of submarine warfare, and created a spaceship that bent the rays of light around it to render it invisible. In later years, Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Predator used cloaking technology to great effect. Stealth technology has appeared in the movie "Firefox", "Stealth".

http://science.discovery.com/videos/...ity-cloak.html

http://www.amazon.com/How-to-Become-.../dp/B003ZV273Y
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2011, 04:57 AM   #107
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

Once or twice is fine, but 80-90% are negative, and that's a pattern...

Christopher wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Clones don't fare well in Roddenberry's universe, technology unchained is fine, but improving human beings...well that just dangerous!

The largest sample of clones in ST are the Jem Hadar and Vorta, both of whom do not share admirable traits, and are at the mercy of their flaws...the Jem Hadar must be on white, and Vorta are basically whimpering, servile drones to the only non-clones in the triad of the Dominion.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that they're clones, but only with the fact that the people who engineered them are tyrants. What you said was that Trek treats clones as "abominations," and that is completely wrong. If anything, the Jem'Hadar and Vorta were often portrayed as victims of the Founders, objects of sympathy rather than disgust. The idea that Star Trek would treat any entire category of beings as an "abomination" -- in other words, would treat that category with hatred and bigotry -- is anathema to how Star Trek approaches things.


The Riker example is not the only one from the Mariposans: they suffer bio-technological flaws, they are thought of as not being imaginative, and are stiff...only combining their DNA with a more viable non-clone people make them worthwhile to carry on as a civilization.
But that's because they'd been forced to rely exclusively on cloning a very small gene pool for hundreds of years, and had fallen prey to the technical limitations of the process. (In fact, the episode's concept of "replicative fading" was rather prophetic -- there are similar problems with cloning in reality.) Saying there's a problem with cloning is not the same as saying there's a problem with clones, or that they're "abominations" that don't deserve to exist.


The Ibudan clones were the result of a murderer and criminal who only wanted to use the technology to survive.
But Odo overtly stated that killing one's own clone was still murder -- which means, by definition, that clones are considered people and are equal to other beings in the eyes of the law. Again, that is not consistent with treating clones as "abominations."


Ultimately genetic creations in ST are humanity playing "God", with the UFP forced to stay out of it by law, and this is pretty much in tune with Roddenberry's views.
Actually it's something of a contradiction to Roddenberry's views, since he generally painted technological progress as a positive, beneficial thing. "Don't play God" is the way most mass-media sci-fi treats technology, but Star Trek has generally tended to be less cautionary and more optimistic about the power of technology. The main exception has been the franchise's resistance to transhumanism of one sort or another (AIs, cyborgs, genetic augments), but there are exceptions to that in characters like Data, the EMH, and Bashir. (TOS was a lot more prone to see AI as a negative than its sequel shows were; most androids and thinking computers in TOS were dangerous or evil, but in TNG etc. they were usually nobler and more sympathetic. Maybe the next generation of Trek shows will be more tolerant of transhumanism than the previous one.)

And again, while the process of cloning has often been shown in the wrong hands, that's a far cry from expressing hate toward the clones themselves.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2011, 05:38 AM   #108
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

RAMA wrote: View Post
Once or twice is fine, but 80-90% are negative, and that's a pattern...
I'll say again: what you said was that the show treated clones, i.e. the people themselves, as "abominations." All you've actually demonstrated is that the show treated the process of cloning as something that could be abused. That is a completely different premise.

By analogy, if a show portrays kidnapping as an immoral act, does that mean it's calling kidnap victims abominations? No. It's criticizing the kidnappers. The ST episodes you cite are critical of the people doing the cloning, but are often sympathetic to the clones themselves.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2011, 10:00 PM   #109
Admiral Buzzkill
The Legend
 
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

RAMA wrote: View Post
Well I don't think any of us were trying to be comprehensive...as I mentioned the first story with a biosip was likely in 1953...
I think you'll find bioships of one kind or another in Stapledon.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2011, 01:45 AM   #110
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

I sadly I haven't read most of his stories yet(though I have most), but from what I can find, there are only mentions of "worldships" (planets as spaceships) and references to living stars, which I suppose could be considered a living ship, but not a bioship or organic ship.

RAMA
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 06:05 AM   #111
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

RAMA wrote: View Post
Solar sailer(s): The fact that electromagnetic radiation produces pressure was discovered in 1871. In 1924, Friedrich Zander proposed solar sails as a means of propelling a spacecraft.

Likely the earliest story in sci-fi involving this method of propulsion was in 1960's: "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul", by Cordwainer Smith. In 1964, Arthur C. Clarke speculated about a "solar yacht race" in "Sunjammer".

In visual fiction, Tron(1982) used a "solar sailing simulation", though it was not actually a physical spacecraft. The first appearance of a physical solar sailer was in May of 1995 on STDS9's "Explorers", followed closely by Outer Limits in July, 1995 with "The Message".



Ikaros, the first actual non-experimental solar sail mission ever was launched in 2010 by the Japanese space agency, followed by the Nanosail-D2 by NASA in Nov, 2010.

RAMA

Addendum: Severely missed the visual fiction appearance, Doctor Who had a solar sailing race in 1983!!!! Then again in 1994, in the fan made "Shakedown"!! Tiger Moth was captured by Sontarrans: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Tiger_Moth

Odin Photon Space Sailer Starlight appeared in 1986 as well:

__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 02:21 PM   #112
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

23skidoo wrote: View Post
Shelley also wrote a second novel called The Last Man, released in 1826, which is about a post-apocalyptic, plague-ravaged Earth of the 21st century, and was possibly the very first novel of that genre ever written. There's even mention of a "black sun". In addition, Shelley's introduction to the novel suggests that it was based upon some prophecies she discovered in a cave - predating by many years the "Blair Witch"-style genre of "this is based upon so-and-so's journal that we discovered".
Just for the record, it's my understanding that that framing device -- the "literary agent framing device" -- was actually exceedingly common in 19th Century literature, and does not originate with Shelley. We see something similar in the opening to Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter, for instance.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 02:35 PM   #113
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

Oh yes, it was quite routine for novels, especially fantasy novels, to be presented in that form, as "This is a manuscript that was delivered to me" or "This is a tale that was told to me." Just about anything by Verne, Wells, or Burroughs is told in that way. And what I consider to be perhaps the first science-fiction novel, Gulliver's Travels, was written as a satire of actual traveler's-tale accounts published by mariners and explorers in the period, and was meant to be published anonymously and passed off as nonfiction, though Swift's authorship was exposed shortly before publication.

Hmm. I guess that could count as the first spoiler.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 06:39 PM   #114
Mistral
Vice Admiral
 
Mistral's Avatar
 
Location: Between the candle and the flame
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

RAMA wrote: View Post
I sadly I haven't read most of his stories yet(though I have most), but from what I can find, there are only mentions of "worldships" (planets as spaceships) and references to living stars, which I suppose could be considered a living ship, but not a bioship or organic ship.

RAMA
Not sure about Old Olaf but isn't McCaffrey's The Ship Who Sang a bioship?
As far as worldships, I know both Heinlein and Blish wrote about them decades ago, Heinlein in Orphans of the Sky, 1963 (fix-up novel comprising the novellas "Universe" and "Common Sense", both originally published in 1941) and Blish in his Cities In Flight stories.
Regarding the Singularity and computing limits in general-I believe I recently read an article about practical molecular computing, which would upscale current capabilities by 100-1000 times current speeds, although I can't find it now. So who's to say that, or DNA computer coding might not lead to a Singularity effect?
I saw an earlier citation for a handheld computer. I know Clarke describes one pretty well in Imperial Earth-1975. And Norton describes efficient hovercraft in Star Rangers-1953.

Just some minor observations.
__________________
...sf fandom is only a personality disorder if you do it right.-Klaus
http://www.adastrafanfic.com - archive stories! www.4rumboys.com for honest gaming

Mistral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 07:29 PM   #115
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

Mistral wrote: View Post
Not sure about Old Olaf but isn't McCaffrey's The Ship Who Sang a bioship?
More of a cyborg -- human brain in a mechanical "body."

As far as worldships, I know both Heinlein and Blish wrote about them decades ago, Heinlein in Orphans of the Sky, 1963 (fix-up novel comprising the novellas "Universe" and "Common Sense", both originally published in 1941) and Blish in his Cities In Flight stories.
Well, cityships rather than worldships. Although there are those who consider New York City a world unto itself...
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 09:45 PM   #116
Redfern
Commodore
 
Redfern's Avatar
 
Location: Georgia, USA
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mistral wrote: View Post
Not sure about Old Olaf but isn't McCaffrey's The Ship Who Sang a bioship?
More of a cyborg -- human brain in a mechanical "body."
Hmm, I understand that the earlier stories of that series implied it was a case of little more than a brain wired to a mechanical body, but didn't one of the later books reveal she was actually a tragically deformed body, though more or less whole, encased within a life support module sealed within the ship? That would make her something more akin to a benevolent Kaled mutant, a nice "Dalek". I recall that only because it frustrated some fans' expectations and they were a bit vocal about it.

Sincerely,

Bill
__________________
Tempt the Hand of Fate and it'll give you the "finger"!

Freighter Tails: the Misadventures of Mzzkiti
Redfern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2012, 11:19 PM   #117
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

I don't remember. Either way, not a bioship.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 14 2012, 07:31 PM   #118
Mistral
Vice Admiral
 
Mistral's Avatar
 
Location: Between the candle and the flame
Re: Some science fiction "firsts"

ok
__________________
...sf fandom is only a personality disorder if you do it right.-Klaus
http://www.adastrafanfic.com - archive stories! www.4rumboys.com for honest gaming

Mistral is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.