If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... - Page 7

Trekkie2 · December 16 2011, 02:24 AM

I like both movies and I would not pass up the chance to watch either over most reality shows, anything but Terra Nova on Monday nights, and WWE on Syfy (how the hell did that happen?).

JarodRussell · December 16 2011, 02:30 AM

Jeyl wrote:

Yeah, I don't like Nemesis, but I don't like Trek09 either. Yet I'm still a huge Star Trek fan regardless. Still, don't you think it's funny that Trek09 and Nemesis share many similar elements with each other?

- Both reference Wrath of Khan.
- Both have a self-indulging car chase moment that doesn't do anything important.
- Both tried to appeal to a wider audience (One worked, one didn't)
- Both feature a villain who is bald, worked as miners for the Romulans, have a ship with superior technology, a vendetta against a particular crew member on the Enterprise and a planet destroying weapon that is later used against them.
- Both feature a piece of transporter technology that should change the very nature of space travel, but will most likely be forgotten in the next installment.

Yeah it's amazing, isn't it?

sonak · December 16 2011, 02:34 AM

JarodRussell wrote:

Jeyl wrote:

Yeah, I don't like Nemesis, but I don't like Trek09 either. Yet I'm still a huge Star Trek fan regardless. Still, don't you think it's funny that Trek09 and Nemesis share many similar elements with each other?

- Both reference Wrath of Khan.
- Both have a self-indulging car chase moment that doesn't do anything important.
- Both tried to appeal to a wider audience (One worked, one didn't)
- Both feature a villain who is bald, worked as miners for the Romulans, have a ship with superior technology, a vendetta against a particular crew member on the Enterprise and a planet destroying weapon that is later used against them.
- Both feature a piece of transporter technology that should change the very nature of space travel, but will most likely be forgotten in the next installment.

Yeah it's amazing, isn't it?

yeah, I brought up the "they're more similar than people think" thing earlier. It is kind of ironic. Just goes to show how much proper execution counts.

also, both have a weakly motivated central villain whose resentment at one of the heroes makes no sense whatsoever.

RoJoHen · December 16 2011, 02:44 AM

sonak wrote:

also, both have a weakly motivated central villain whose resentment at one of the heroes makes no sense whatsoever.

At least with Nero you can make the excuse that he was grief-stricken and then spent 25 years rotting in a prison. His sanity may be impaired.

Shinzon is just whiney.

JarodRussell · December 16 2011, 02:46 AM

RoJoHen wrote:

sonak wrote:

also, both have a weakly motivated central villain whose resentment at one of the heroes makes no sense whatsoever.

At least with Nero you can make the excuse that he was grief-stricken and then spent 25 years rotting in a prison. His sanity may be impaired.

Shinzon is just whiney.

Didn't Shinzon spend almost the same time in a mine?

RoJoHen · December 16 2011, 02:51 AM

Well, yeah, but he didn't know any better. Nero was a good, honest man who lost everything. Shinzon grew up in a mine and won his freedom by focusing his work on overthrowing the Romulans. Then, suddenly, he decides to destroy Earth...for what reason?

Shinzon really didn't bother me until the back half of the film when he started dying and went crazy. Normal people don't continue walking after they've been impaled by random spikes.

Tosk · December 16 2011, 03:51 AM

RoJoHen wrote:

At least with Nero you can make the excuse that he was grief-stricken and then spent 25 years rotting in a prison. His sanity may be impaired. Shinzon is just whiney.

Except that Nero wasn't ever in prison...they cut that plotline out. All he did was just sit around in his gigantic spaceship for 25 years.

RoJoHen wrote:

Normal people don't continue walking after they've been impaled by random spikes.

That happens quite a lot actually. I'm constantly surprised by what the human body will endure and keep running "normally".

RoJoHen · December 16 2011, 04:43 AM

Tosk wrote:

RoJoHen wrote:

At least with Nero you can make the excuse that he was grief-stricken and then spent 25 years rotting in a prison. His sanity may be impaired. Shinzon is just whiney.

Except that Nero wasn't ever in prison...they cut that plotline out. All he did was just sit around in his gigantic spaceship for 25 years.

Well, that would be enough to drive me nuts.

RoJoHen wrote:

Normal people don't continue walking after they've been impaled by random spikes.

That happens quite a lot actually. I'm constantly surprised by what the human body will endure and keep running "normally".

Um...I'm going to need you to cite instances where this happens "a lot." I am personally unaware of many real people who have been impaled.

Maurice · December 16 2011, 09:50 AM

trek_futurist wrote:

.....Well, quite simply put, you are not a Star trek fan.

"Fan" is a dimminutive form of "fanatic", and being a fanatic about something doesn't mean you have to agree with other fans about it. As such, you proceed from a fatally flawed presumption ergo the rest of your original post is moot.

Tosk · December 16 2011, 10:10 AM

RoJoHen wrote:

Um...I'm going to need you to cite instances where this happens "a lot." I am personally unaware of many real people who have been impaled.

http://www.mydailynews.com.au/story/...ed-on-7m-pole/

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/lo...135552458.html

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...-boundary-wall (Died, but took 15 hours)

http://www.pottsmerc.com/articles/20...1292080792.txt

http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news..._fall/?ref=rss

These are all from a sixty second Google search, so I could keep going quite easily.

Maurice · December 16 2011, 10:19 AM

Tosk wrote:

RoJoHen wrote:

Um...I'm going to need you to cite instances where this happens "a lot." I am personally unaware of many real people who have been impaled.

http://www.mydailynews.com.au/story/...ed-on-7m-pole/

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/lo...135552458.html

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...-boundary-wall (Died, but took 15 hours)

http://www.pottsmerc.com/articles/20...1292080792.txt

http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news..._fall/?ref=rss

These are all from a sixty second Google search, so I could keep going quite easily.

But wasn't the original posit here that "Normal people don't continue walking after they've been impaled by random spikes." You've cited people being impaled, but I don't see they were walking right afterwards.

Tosk · December 16 2011, 10:43 AM

We're gonna argue actual steps? Shinzon took all of, what...one and a half steps before dying? Whereas all but one of these example dudes lived.

Doesn't matter anyway, I was just pointing out that people survive much worse and often. I have no stake in the matter, so I'll leave it up to someone else to argue semantics from this point on.

King Daniel · December 16 2011, 11:33 AM

RoJoHen wrote:

sonak wrote:

also, both have a weakly motivated central villain whose resentment at one of the heroes makes no sense whatsoever.

At least with Nero you can make the excuse that he was grief-stricken and then spent 25 years rotting in a prison. His sanity may be impaired.

Shinzon is just whiney.

While Shinzon did come across as whiney, his sanity was definitely impared, too. He was raised in a mine, and abused by Romulans since he was a child. How would that NOT fuck someone up severely, even Picard?

RoJoHen · December 16 2011, 01:06 PM

Tosk wrote:

We're gonna argue actual steps? Shinzon took all of, what...one and a half steps before dying? Whereas all but one of these example dudes lived.

Doesn't matter anyway, I was just pointing out that people survive much worse and often. I have no stake in the matter, so I'll leave it up to someone else to argue semantics from this point on.

Yes, we're gonna argue actual steps. I know people survive crazy shit all the time. Shinzon got impaled, and then not only walked, but grabbed the random spike and pulled himself forward. Why? What was the point of that? To prove that he's batshit crazy?

horatio83 · December 16 2011, 01:59 PM

It is clear that Shinzon and Nero resemble each other in many way. They are very bad Khan copies, an example for how you cannot pick some random elements out of a character of a good movie and expect them to work in your movie if you totally ignore everything else from the good movie that inspired you.
Call it heresy but at least on a script level that ignores Montalban's fine acting TWOK is not a good movie because of but in spite of Khan.

December 16 2011, 02:24 AM	#91
Trekkie2 Commander Location: Same place, different universe	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... I like both movies and I would not pass up the chance to watch either over most reality shows, anything but Terra Nova on Monday nights, and WWE on Syfy (how the hell did that happen?).

December 16 2011, 02:51 AM	#96
RoJoHen Awesome Location: Wherever life takes me	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... Well, yeah, but he didn't know any better. Nero was a good, honest man who lost everything. Shinzon grew up in a mine and won his freedom by focusing his work on overthrowing the Romulans. Then, suddenly, he decides to destroy Earth...for what reason? Shinzon really didn't bother me until the back half of the film when he started dying and went crazy. Normal people don't continue walking after they've been impaled by random spikes. __________________ I am the Quintessential Admiral. Get ready to grow your EQUINOX BEARD!

December 16 2011, 10:43 AM	#102
Tosk Rear Admiral Location: On the run.	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... We're gonna argue actual steps? Shinzon took all of, what...one and a half steps before dying? Whereas all but one of these example dudes lived. Doesn't matter anyway, I was just pointing out that people survive much worse and often. I have no stake in the matter, so I'll leave it up to someone else to argue semantics from this point on.

December 16 2011, 01:59 PM	#105
horatio83 Commodore	Re: If you don't think Nemesis is better than Star trek 2009.... It is clear that Shinzon and Nero resemble each other in many way. They are very bad Khan copies, an example for how you cannot pick some random elements out of a character of a good movie and expect them to work in your movie if you totally ignore everything else from the good movie that inspired you. Call it heresy but at least on a script level that ignores Montalban's fine acting TWOK is not a good movie because of but in spite of Khan.

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