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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 14 2011, 10:04 PM   #361
Deks
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Janeway only made a temporary alliance with the Borg, which 7 of 9 promptly broke after 8472 were driven out of the Galaxy.
Of course, it was explained in Dark Frontier that the Queen effectively gave 7 to Janeway so she could help her understand Humanity better, which is one of the reasons they left them alone and could later use to assimilate Humanity in the long run.
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Old December 15 2011, 02:11 AM   #362
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Deks wrote: View Post
Actually, the Borg started to fail since their usage in TNG as well.
It started with I Borg, Descent, then went on to FC with the introduction of the queen.
Voyager actually kept in line with 'no queen' in Scorpion... but then used her in Dark Frontier.

And most of their 'incidents' with the Collective resulted in Voyager barely getting out alive or always getting help from a force that could stand up to the Borg.

TNG was no different actually.
I agree, except with the Queen.
I think after "I.Borg" & "Decent", you needed to new element added to the Borg to bring them back from wussyville. I didn't mind the Queen in "Dark Frontier" either. After "FC" being one of the highest grossing Trek films, any causal viewer tuning into Voyager would expect to see her. The producers/writers knew that, so for ratings sake they had too. They took her too far in "Unimatrix Zero" because they showed her as weak thus making the Borg look weak again.

If anything, "Unimatrix Zero" should have been a Borg origin story.
Don't show us them as weak, show us what it was that made them strong.
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Old December 15 2011, 02:41 AM   #363
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

They could've/should've just had the Borg be a creation of the Caretakers. Would've tied the Borg deeper to VOY and explained their contradictory nature (they call themselves a Collective, but they're more like a virus) if they were a created/tampered with species instead of something that developed naturally.
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Old December 15 2011, 10:06 AM   #364
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
Deks wrote: View Post
Actually, the Borg started to fail since their usage in TNG as well.
It started with I Borg, Descent, then went on to FC with the introduction of the queen.
Voyager actually kept in line with 'no queen' in Scorpion... but then used her in Dark Frontier.

And most of their 'incidents' with the Collective resulted in Voyager barely getting out alive or always getting help from a force that could stand up to the Borg.

TNG was no different actually.
I agree, except with the Queen.
I think after "I.Borg" & "Decent", you needed to new element added to the Borg to bring them back from wussyville. I didn't mind the Queen in "Dark Frontier" either. After "FC" being one of the highest grossing Trek films, any causal viewer tuning into Voyager would expect to see her. The producers/writers knew that, so for ratings sake they had too. They took her too far in "Unimatrix Zero" because they showed her as weak thus making the Borg look weak again.

If anything, "Unimatrix Zero" should have been a Borg origin story.
Don't show us them as weak, show us what it was that made them strong.
I respectfully disagree on the Queen bit.
It was an unnecessary addon to the Collective which in turn made them look idiotic.

As TNG promptly explained about the Borg: A single leader can make mistakes... in a collective, you minimize the chances of that happening.

I think the collective was rounding up the mistakes ever since the Queen appeared - even though Voyager barely got out of every encounter.
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Old December 15 2011, 12:43 PM   #365
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

In the movie she said that she wasn't the leader in a round a bout way.

Voyager didn't understand or repeat that sentiment.
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Old December 15 2011, 02:02 PM   #366
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Agreed, but the Borg sure were prone to far more 'failures' since the Queen was introduced.

At least the show didn't try to bring them down to a 'standard villain' level.

I am kinda hoping that if the Borg are revisited in the pos-Voyager (canon-wise), and they survived, then the Collective eradicated the queen and returned to it's original 'force of nature' premise.

We can see SF mounting periodic resistance and the Borg simply using them for technological advancement.
Besides, the Collective could still be vast given all it's ships.
I doubt the neuorlithic pathogen was able to eradicate them all. A good portion, yes, causing 'devastating' damage that would stop the Borg in their tracks at least for a time until they rebuild.

Even if you think about it... the Destiny novels might have portrayed the Borg in a tad irrational capacity.
The Collective might come to consider the Federation as 'worthy' of future assimilation because they demonstrated they can mount a successful resistance (such as it was) while still being considered as 'raw material'... and were the only ones in the Milky Way galaxy that achieved that while still in technological 'infancy' (from the Borg's point of view).

The Collective by itself has time. They can adapt to virtually anything you throw at them.
And this might be one of the reasons why they might consider keeping the Federation around for a while longer.
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Last edited by Deks; December 15 2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old December 15 2011, 02:17 PM   #367
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Conflict promotes technology.

By attacking species with the intention of losing, the Borg forces those species to invent technology the Borg would like to assimilate, which those species, paranoid about the next Borg attack, in over their heads and out of their depth, can't properly defend or protect with any efficiency.
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Old December 15 2011, 02:43 PM   #368
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Every time the Borg showed up in TNG, except for "Q Who?", they had a "Representative" one way or another:

BOBW had Locutus, "I, Borg" had Hugh and "Descent" had Lore.

Even TNG showed that the "Leaderless force of nature" thing was something they only were able to do once. And even then ("Q Who?") they needed Q and Guinan as narrators otherwise the story wouldn't have worked.
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Old December 15 2011, 03:13 PM   #369
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's like battered wife syndrome.

Some women are psychologically batshit to unconditionally forgive her husband no matter how hard or often he hits her, but if some of bugger gives her a kindly pat on the rump, she'll take to his throat with a screwdriver.

Battered fanboy syndrome.
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Old December 15 2011, 09:37 PM   #370
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I prefer the Borg to keep their talking with other species as 'faceless' or 'disembodied'... in essence, 0 representatives.

The story can work just fine, it's up to the writers to come up with a decent way of telling it.
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Old December 15 2011, 09:51 PM   #371
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Trek has only ever done such a story ONCE: "Q Who?", and the only way for that story to work was with Guinan and Q as "narrators". It can be argued that Q was the Borg Representative in that episode.

EVERY Borg story since then had a Borg Representative.

In hindsight, it's obvious that the Borg concept really does need Representatives and this "Faceless foe" thing was never going to work out.

BOBW had Locutus (he WAS a Representative, like it or not), "I, Borg" and "Descent" had Hugh and Lore, FC had the Queen, Scorpion had Seven, Unity had Riley and co, etc.
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Old December 16 2011, 12:59 AM   #372
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I found the Q and Guinan to be annoying to be honest.
Why hand us the info on the Borg on a silver platter?
Better to have left Q flung the Enterprise-D in front of the cube and just leave until the very end where Picard pleads him for help.

The very point of the show back in the day was to portray humans learning about these things on their own.
Some guidance is fine, but narrators not really
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Old December 16 2011, 01:17 AM   #373
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

What would have been wonderful, is if in Times Arrow, Picard told Young Guinan that she needed to be on his ship in 2364(5?) to tell him about the Borg.

Although until seasonn 6, Gunian must have been slap happy knowing that Enteprrise was indestructible because of temporal preclusion.
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Old December 16 2011, 01:40 AM   #374
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The BORG were weakened the minute TNG beat them by putting them into LaLa land with that sleep command.

Strike that.

They were weakened the minute the BORG did NOT come roaring back with another cube with the sleep command disabled. The Federation didn't defeat the BORG, the BORG just seemingly lost interest in defeating the upstart organics.
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Old December 18 2011, 11:19 PM   #375
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
The BORG were weakened the minute TNG beat them by putting them into LaLa land with that sleep command.

Strike that.

They were weakened the minute the BORG did NOT come roaring back with another cube with the sleep command disabled. The Federation didn't defeat the BORG, the BORG just seemingly lost interest in defeating the upstart organics.
Actually, it wasn't so much the sleep command as it was the "overload" effect. Sure, I can believe a non-primary function with less security could be decoded and utilized. Remember, Data couldn't override the shields or weapons functions. "Sleep" was simply overlooked by the Borg, as they wouldn't expect anybody to understand their codes. Access to Locutus allowed Data to figure it out.

So, Data sends the command "Sleep". This is not, "sleep x infinity" and cause an overload, just "sleep". I'm sorry, but I know how computer systems are programmed and this just wouldn't have ever happened with the sophisticated programming of the Borg.

What should have happened was that Data would keep resubmitting the "sleep" command, which would prevent the Borg ship from awakening during the attack from the Enterprise. A barrage of phasers and photon torpedoes would pummel the Borg cube, without any regenerating going on. In short order, the ship would be destroyed. THAT is how they should have been defeated.

The next time the Borg are encountered, the Sleep command is discovered to be protected like the other commands. Problem solved.

Anyway... the representation of Borg was weakened here, and then First Contact continued to erode the strength of the Borg.

They are still a "collective" with the Queen. It's just that the Queen is a regional director, to help coordinate efforts in a localized area. But the whole sexuality thing was utterly ridiculous. The Borg should be devoid of emotion, cravings, or sexual interest beyond pure reproductive purposes.

In Voyager, the Borg ships were not only smaller, but they seemed incapable of completely destroying Voyager. This was just plain ridiculous. The Galaxy Class starship was a far more formidable ship and plenty of them were decimated at the Wolf 359 encounter by a single Borg cube.
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