Does It Get Better???

[You_Will_Fail]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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10-9: Perfect, or near perfect. One of the best Star Trek episodes ever.
7-8: Great! Not as perfect as it could be, but nonetheless a very, very enjoyable episode. No real complaints.
5-6: Good. Not one of the best episodes ever, but very good. Some minor nitpicks or quibbles, but overall a fine, average episode.
3-4: Below Average. Some issues here and there that seriously affect my enjoyment of the episode, but also some redeeming qualities that make it worthwhile. Not bad, but not good either.
1-2: Poor. An episode full of schlock that's hardly worthwhile.

5 out of 10 looks bad on paper, but it really isn't a bad score according to my scale.

To give you an idea of rated other Trek seasons, here are my ratings for TNG season 7:

Descent P2 5
Liaisons 6
Interface 5
Gambit P1/2 8
Phantasms 5
Dark Page 3
Attached 6
Force of Nature 3
Inheritance 5
Parallels 9
The Pegasus 7
Homeward 5
Sub Rosa 4
Lower Decks 7
Thine Own Self 7
Masks 3
Eye of the Beholder 5
Genesis 4
Journey’s End 8
Firstborn 6
Bloodlines 4
Emergence 5
Preemptive Strike 9
All Good Things P1/2 9

See, it baffles me how you consider "Emergence", "Homeward" and "Interface" better than "Phage". I thought Phage had a great mixture of tragedy, humor, suspense and the introduction of a fascinating villain and a great scene where Janeway confronts them. I also wouldn't consider "Emanations" on the same low level as "Forces of Nature" or "Masks". Both those were incomprehensible messes, I thought "Emanations" did a decent job exploring death and the afterlife.
Likewise I think the concept and well written drama of "Faces" would elevate it above episodes like "Interface" and "Emergence"

Well its good you're enjoying it so far at least, but you're definitely a harsher critic than me since I would classify 5 season 1 episodes as "excellent"! It will be interesting to see what you think of future episodes, keep us updated!

[AdmiralScreed]

In hindsight, I think I was a little harsh on a few episodes. I've changed my rating for "Emanations" from 3 to 4, "Phage" from 4 to 5, and "Faces" from 5 to 6.

I started season 2 yesterday by watching the first two episodes. Here are my ratings:

The 37's 5
Initiations 4

I thought The 37's had some fun moments, but there are a few big implausibilities (why would Delta Quadrant aliens kidnap humans from the Alpha Quadrant just to use them as slaves???), and once again the writers dangled the possibility of returning to the Delta Quadrant in our faces even though it was obvious they wouldn't returning because it was only the beginning of the show, and they had done the same thing many times before. Nevertheless, it was a fun episode with some good moments.

Initiations has two main problems. 1) The child Kazon is extremely annoying. Not sure if I should blame Aron Eisenberg or the writers, but nevertheless the scenes with him made me cringe. 2) The Kazon are essentially the Delta Quadrant version of the Klingons, except less cool (at this point). I'm hoping that they will develop more as the show progresses.
I liked the way Chakotay stood by his principles in this episode. He was unwilling to kill the child (who had tried to kill him, I might add) even if it meant that he could escape. And he was even willing to let the kid "kill" him just to restore his honor.

So, am I being too harsh, or do you think my ratings are fair?

[stj]

The 37s was what's called a soft reboot. It was an episode designed to fundamentally change the premise of the show. In this case, after this episode everyone on board was there willingly. If you didn't throw something at the tv screen when Janeway sees an empty room because no one chose to stay, then the show succeeded triumphantly in its job. People like Ron Moore who rant about the premise are either too stupid to notice or just lying about what they really dislike.

[You_Will_Fail]

stj wrote:

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The 37s was what's called a soft reboot. It was an episode designed to fundamentally change the premise of the show. In this case, after this episode everyone on board was there willingly. If you didn't throw something at the tv screen when Janeway sees an empty room because no one chose to stay, then the show succeeded triumphantly in its job. People like Ron Moore who rant about the premise are either too stupid to notice or just lying about what they really dislike.

I don't get where you're coming from with this at all. Voyager had tons of plausibility and premise related problems, the piece of crap "The 37s" can't explain them all away.

Anyway, I'd give "Phage" a 9. What did you feel wasn't so great about it? I can't think of anything in the episode I didn't like to be honest!

And I hate "The 37s" and "Inititations". The former was just plain DUMB and not in a fun way like "Genesis". And Initiations was just boring to me.

[RandyS]

KingDaniel wrote:

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Yes, it gets better.

But not much.

It's not a bad show, but if you're expecting it to be EPIC (and let's be honest here, you are), you will be disapointed.

[BillJ]

Yes and no. That's all I can really say.

[controlfreak]

Like all the series, there were some great episodes and not so good ones. Watch the show and make your own opinions.

[AdmiralScreed]

RandyS wrote:

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But not much.

It's not a bad show, but if you're expecting it to be EPIC (and let's be honest here, you are), you will be disapointed.

I think part of the problem is that I'm watching this show coming off of DS9. I'm used to long story arcs, recurring guest characters, lots of development, and larger scale conflicts. So far, VOY hasn't had much of any of this. But then again, TNG wasn't usually this way either, and I absolutely loved it.

@You Will Fail: About Phage, the only thing that bothered me was Neelix after his lungs were removed. All of his banter throughout the episode got to be kind of annoying. And more importantly than that, it just wasn't an important episode with severe consequences. With the exception of a new alien species being introduced, this episode didn't have a large impact on the characters or the series as a whole. I suppose if you love Faces, then you're going to love Phage because that's the episode that introduced the Vidians (is that the name of the species?), but otherwise it wasn't an important episode.
Anyway, just my opinion. What is it that you loved so much about Phage?

[TheGodBen]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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I don't get where you're coming from with this at all.

Ron Moore once cut off stj in traffic and he took it as a personal slight that needs to be avenged. (That's my theory at any rate.) As a result, stj brings up Ron Moore obsessively in order to bash the man and his fans, even in threads where nobody is talking about Ron Moore (such as in this thread). It's really quite comical.

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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And more importantly than that, it just wasn't an important episode with severe consequences. With the exception of a new alien species being introduced, this episode didn't have a large impact on the characters or the series as a whole.

This is an issue with the show as a whole. In fact, most of the episodes that seem to have a big impact on the characters don't really. It's something you have to accept in order to enjoy the show's good episodes.

[AdmiralScreed]

In retrospective, I think I have been a little harsh on certain episodes, and overall my expectations have been too high. Here is my updated list of ratings for every episode I have seen so far.


Season One
The Caretaker P1/P2 5
Parallax 6
Time and Again 5
Phage 5
The Cloud 4
Eye of the Needle 7
Ex Post Facto 4
Emanations 4
Prime Factors 7
State of Flux 7
Heroes and Demons 5
Cathexis 4
Faces 7
Jetrel 6
Learning Curve 6

Season Two
The 37’s 5
Initiations 4

Not much of a difference, but still worthwhile. I'm not doing this to appease Voyager fans that disagree with my ratings, I just feel that I've been approaching this show the wrong way. It's not going to be another TNG, nor is it going to be anything like DS9. I think that if I can come to terms with that, then I'll enjoy this show a lot more in the long run. Not that I'm not enjoying it, because I really am. But I do think that I will enjoy Voyager even more if I can go into each episode without such high expectations.

[DonIago]

That strikes me as a pretty reasonable approach.

[You_Will_Fail]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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And more importantly than that, it just wasn't an important episode with severe consequences. With the exception of a new alien species being introduced, this episode didn't have a large impact on the characters or the series as a whole.

But isn't that the case in tons of TNG episodes and some DS9 episodes too so why should Voyager episodes get marked down for it? There are standalone episodes in Trek that are just there to entertain us using the characters and surroundings we know. "Hard Time" was a fantastic DS9 episode but the events in it were never discussed again and didn't seem to affect O'Brien out of that episode but I definitely wouldn't mark it down for that.

And regarding Phage, I did feel it set more of the scene for Voyager in the DQ. It gave us Neelix's mess hall, the Viddians we, Kes was offered the position of a trainee nurse, and it developed the personality of the Doctor and Neelix.

As for why I like the episode. Well first of all I think it developed the characters of Neelix and the Doctor further in a fun way, I enjoyed their interaction a lot.
I also love the scene in which the Vidiians were introduced and Mulgrew's acting was superb in that scene. The Vidiians themselves were interesting and a unique villain to Trek, 3 dimensional and sympathetic. Can we outright condemn their actions when they're doing it just to struggle to stay alive?

Overall, its a strong episode and not simply just a "things happen oooh sci-fi" episode. We got character development and it set the stage for future events such as Kes training to be a nurse, Neelix running the mess hall and the Vidiians re-appearing.

I feel the same way about Jetrel too, another strong character episode that tells us more about Neelix's tragic backstory and I'll be damned if Ethan Phillips wasn't one of the best actors Trek ever had.

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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But I do think that I will enjoy Voyager even more if I can go into each episode without such high expectations.

Definitely, I think you're trying to compare a few Voyager seasons to the whole Dominion arc or something.
I personally take Voyager on an episode by episode basis and evaluate just how much the episode entertained me or touched me. Its only when I take a step back to evaluate the show and ask "how much did this show live up to its premise/develop its characters" etc etc that it takes a hit.

[stj]

You_Will_Fail wrote:

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I don't get where you're coming from with this at all. Voyager had tons of plausibility and premise related problems, the piece of crap "The 37s" can't explain them all away...was just plain DUMB and not in a fun way like "Genesis"...

All Trek, including Star Trek itself, has had plausibility problems. Except for the handful of hard SF fans, whenever someone talks about plausibility they usually mean something else. Coupling plausibility and premise related problems suggests very strongly the popular drivel about not living up to the premise. Moore of course comes in because his is the main authority for this propagation of this disingenuous nonsense.

The 37s, whether you liked the episode or not, changed the premise of the show. Whether you can't see this simple point or merely refuse to accept it because you have some wacky agenda is irrelevant. The nonsense about the truck or the astronomical coincidence in running into this world or the inherent absurdity in carrying humans 70 000 lyrs are also irrelevant to the dramatic question posed. Which was whether to go on willingly or stay. If you think that people are too cowardly or diverse or whatever for the episode's resolution to be acceptable to your gut instinct about people, fine. But not to even see the question?

[Harvey]

Brannon Braga and Jeri Taylor, who co-wrote "The 37s," do describe the episode as a "turning point" for Star Trek: Voyager. Having said that, the easy shuffling of three episodes produced prior to "The 37s" to the third, fourth, and sixth airdates of the second season suggests that the series was already so episodic at that point that so-called "turning points" were essentially irrelevant to following episodes.

In general, I think that's pretty illustrative of the problem with the writing of Star Trek: Voyager, although I'd also say that beginning in the fifth season, more often than not the series commits a far worse sin: it's just plain dull.

[You_Will_Fail]

stj wrote:

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Coupling plausibility and premise related problems suggests very strongly the popular drivel about not living up to the premise. Moore of course comes in because his is the main authority for this propagation of this disingenuous nonsense.

Ok so that's your opinion and I, like many others, do not agree at all. I can accept that the crew were happy enough to stay on the ship but that's ALL "The 37's" showed us. It didn't cover the rest of the problems this show had with living up to its premise and remaining realistic to the situation the crew/ship were in.
I'm not really interested in discussing it either. You have your opinion and I have mine - if you want to know what mine is exactly then feel free to re-read that Ronald D Moore interview because he hit the nail on the head.