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Old December 6 2011, 03:14 PM   #736
Jax
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Derishton wrote: View Post
I think Shane is becoming a Rorschach test - and by that, I mean the character from the Watchmen. If you read Watchmen and think Rorschach is the hero, you might be inclined to think Shane is in any sense admirable. In fact, Rorschach at least has ethics and not simply principles: Shane is all about his survival and, to a lesser extent, the survival of his personal group. Rick thinks about the bigger picture, the possibility of a bigger group whose needs might all be met. That's not vacillation. That's leadership.
Anyone who thinks Shane is anyway a leader or a hero needs their brain checking, he is a horrible evil person + a giant ticking time bomb.
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Old December 6 2011, 03:20 PM   #737
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

I'm not sure I'd go that far, although Allan Moore has always expressed surprise that anybody thinks Rorschach is the hero of Watchmen. Shane is built a little differently as a character, but it does look as though Shane would appeal to certain political sentiments or beliefs about leadership. Or would be like Rambo, in that he becomes a kind of fantasy site for those who crave strong-man bully leadership.
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Old December 6 2011, 09:41 PM   #738
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Quite. One of Shane's strengths as a character - and this episode is a great example of it - is exposing the whole 'if I was in a zombie apoalypse' logic. A lot of the appeal of the zombie apocalypse fantasy is picturing oneself as the person with the primal amoral will to survive, doing whatever it takes, and so on. The series kind of exposes this in Shane as basically a kind of sociopathic cowardice.

What makes Shane interesting as a character is despite how low he's sunk, and how naturally this lowness comes to him, he wants to be the hero. He wants to do good. He wants to believe that his ends justify all his means. He's the same guy who'll beat a man to a pulp for abusing his wife and then try to rape someone else's.

The man is a ticking time bomb, and also one of the best reasons to keep watching the show.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
They move because a zombie apocolypse show would be boring without zombies, not because there's any medical explanation that would allow them to do so.
Of course, but the behaviour of zombies by necessity requires one to reasses how we define living or dead. They do behave like living things, that they consistently desire food - that they desire at all - is a pretty strong practical evidence of that.

So for Hershel to consider the zombies living makes perfect sense. And while it's possible there may be no cure, that can also be said about many illnesses - the response to an incurable illness isn't necessarily to kill your patient. The shed thus was kind of a moral equivalent to a mental hospital, which is no doubt why Hershel brought up the example of schizoprenics - schizoprenics may be dangerous, schizoprenics may never get better, but that doesn't mean you shoot them in the head.


J.T.B. wrote: View Post
But from what the CDC guy said and what has been show, it is actual death and decomposition.
Not something that Hershel was ever told, however. This was one of the bigger oversights for me in how the group behaved (not that they're known for their foresight or competence).
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Old December 6 2011, 10:06 PM   #739
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Something tells me Hershel wouldn't have put much stock in what the CDC said anyway.
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Old December 6 2011, 11:31 PM   #740
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Kegg wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
But from what the CDC guy said and what has been show, it is actual death and decomposition.
Not something that Hershel was ever told, however. This was one of the bigger oversights for me in how the group behaved (not that they're known for their foresight or competence).
Why would he have to be told? The evidence before his own eyes (and nose) would seem pretty convincing. Why would Herschel think that he could "restore" a body with tissues in that condition any more than he could for one who had died the old-fashioned way? I can't think of any reason except he's not thinking rationally on that point.



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Old December 7 2011, 01:22 AM   #741
the G-man
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Derishton wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I'd go that far, although Allan Moore has always expressed surprise that anybody thinks Rorschach is the hero of Watchmen. Shane is built a little differently as a character, but it does look as though Shane would appeal to certain political sentiments or beliefs about leadership. Or would be like Rambo, in that he becomes a kind of fantasy site for those who crave strong-man bully leadership.
Actually, I see Daryl as the "Rambo" character.
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Old December 7 2011, 02:43 AM   #742
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Kegg wrote: View Post
And while it's possible there may be no cure, that can also be said about many illnesses - the response to an incurable illness isn't necessarily to kill your patient.
If indeed it could be called an illness, it is not the same in scope as any illness that has ever existed. It's an affliction that's gone global and that threatens to make humanity extinct.

You can't really compare the barn to a mental hospital because even those in there can still reason, speak, and aren't constantly trying to eat other people unaffected by their "disease". And even if they were trying to, if they greatly outnumbered the sane population, you can bet that some killing would happen.

The morals will change to fit the situation, and Herschel just never figured that out.
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Old December 7 2011, 03:20 AM   #743
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

the G-man wrote: View Post
Derishton wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I'd go that far, although Allan Moore has always expressed surprise that anybody thinks Rorschach is the hero of Watchmen. Shane is built a little differently as a character, but it does look as though Shane would appeal to certain political sentiments or beliefs about leadership. Or would be like Rambo, in that he becomes a kind of fantasy site for those who crave strong-man bully leadership.
Actually, I see Daryl as the "Rambo" character.
I could see that - Daryl's probably a better fit, given his lack of desire for leadership and the trouble he has feeling as though he fits in or wants to fit in or is accepted. "Rambo" was a name I tossed off in a moment of weakness. Maybe Shane is closest to someone like Guy Gardner, as he was portrayed in early JLI. I agree with Kegg that he's a key reason to watch the show - the actor is doing a really superb job with a character who could easily be one-note.
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Old December 7 2011, 10:59 PM   #744
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
If indeed it could be called an illness, it is not the same in scope as any illness that has ever existed. It's an affliction that's gone global and that threatens to make humanity extinct.

You can't really compare the barn to a mental hospital because even those in there can still reason, speak, and aren't constantly trying to eat other people unaffected by their "disease". And even if they were trying to, if they greatly outnumbered the sane population, you can bet that some killing would happen.
Yeah it should be clear to everyone in that world by now that whatever's causing this, isn't based on any kind of real world science. This isn't just an advanced form of rabies they're dealing with; these are supernatural creatures which can survive and function in ways that are simply not possible.
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Old December 9 2011, 03:46 AM   #745
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

I don't know if the walkers are supernatural. If I was still alive in TWD's world I'd be looking to science to find a cure. In fact I would be doing what Rick and his crew were prior to landing on the farm. Trying to find a way back to civilization. It's still out there somewhere. A walker free city where people are working on fixing this mess. I'd want to help rather than try to eek out some existence on a farm or wander the roads until bitten.
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Old December 9 2011, 05:04 AM   #746
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Akiraprise wrote: View Post
I don't know if the walkers are supernatural. If I was still alive in TWD's world I'd be looking to science to find a cure. In fact I would be doing what Rick and his crew were prior to landing on the farm. Trying to find a way back to civilization. It's still out there somewhere. A walker free city where people are working on fixing this mess. I'd want to help rather than try to eek out some existence on a farm or wander the roads until bitten.
It's getting high time for us to find out what Doctor I-Don't-Wanna-Live-Without-My-Honey-Buns-TS-19 whispered to Rick.
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Old December 9 2011, 05:05 AM   #747
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

davejames wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
If indeed it could be called an illness, it is not the same in scope as any illness that has ever existed. It's an affliction that's gone global and that threatens to make humanity extinct.

You can't really compare the barn to a mental hospital because even those in there can still reason, speak, and aren't constantly trying to eat other people unaffected by their "disease". And even if they were trying to, if they greatly outnumbered the sane population, you can bet that some killing would happen.
Yeah it should be clear to everyone in that world by now that whatever's causing this, isn't based on any kind of real world science. This isn't just an advanced form of rabies they're dealing with; these are supernatural creatures which can survive and function in ways that are simply not possible.
Not genuine real world science, but it seems to me it's supposed to be science-based in TWD universe -- albeit not yet understood science.
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Old December 9 2011, 10:30 AM   #748
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

The Walkers aren't supernatural, but what they are is paradigm shifting. They're new scientific data that would radically overhaul existing scientific theories if there are still scientists around working on those.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
You can't really compare the barn to a mental hospital because even those in there can still reason, speak, and aren't constantly trying to eat other people unaffected by their "disease".
No, I still can. I could compare it to a hypothetical mental hospital inhabited by dangerous and unreasoning insane subjects with a cannibalistic taste for human flesh.

you can bet that some killing would happen.
No doubt. On this point, I'd observe the Otis is perfectly okay with killing zombies at the school, because it's basically a necessity.
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Old December 9 2011, 03:18 PM   #749
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

I think Otis was far more aware of the situation then Herschel was. He kept Herschel and the rest of the family far removed from what was happening out in the world.

Kegg wrote: View Post
No doubt. On this point, I'd observe the Otis is perfectly okay with killing zombies at the school, because it's basically a necessity.
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Old December 9 2011, 06:17 PM   #750
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

Akiraprise wrote: View Post
I don't know if the walkers are supernatural. If I was still alive in TWD's world I'd be looking to science to find a cure.
Yeah, I wouldn't say supernatural, just far beyond what our science could actually explain. So uh, science fiction. I don't think it's quite at the level of things like ghosts, gods, or anything ethereal. But it's definitely walking that line between sci-fi and fantasy.

Kegg wrote: View Post
No, I still can. I could compare it to a hypothetical mental hospital inhabited by dangerous and unreasoning insane subjects with a cannibalistic taste for human flesh.
Ok, I guess you could... but I'm not sure I see the point in making a comparison to a hypothetical.
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