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Old December 4 2011, 07:53 PM   #706
antichristhill
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
It's nice to see everybody hugging her at the end.
That was! What a great behind-the-scenes peek.
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Old December 4 2011, 08:08 PM   #707
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?
And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.
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Old December 4 2011, 08:12 PM   #708
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

I finally got caught up here at the midseason finale and appreciate the dilemma our survivors were placed with. Taking out Herschels' Walkers wasn't an issue, no personal attachment. The conclusion to the long running Sophia is missing arc had them dealing with not only someone they know that is turned/diseased/dead but a child.

I'm hoping that the group has a change of scenery for us in the last half of the season. Will getting to Fort Benning be the end point for a few episodes like the CDC was. They get a few more pieces of the larger puzzle with the Walker epidemic but suffer some more bad news(miscarriage?).

As much as Shane is a killer/rapist you can't help but know he's making sense many times the last few episodes. You can't be soft or naive in the type of world they have inherited.

Really great show!! Can't wait to rewatch S1 soon. Got a great Amazon Cyber Monday price on it at $14.
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Old December 4 2011, 11:21 PM   #709
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Captain Craig wrote: View Post

As much as Shane is a killer/rapist you can't help but know he's making sense many times the last few episodes. You can't be soft or naive in the type of world they have inherited.
Shane might be "right" but imposing his righteousness on people instead of letting them choose to accept it is wrong. (And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)

That's why people hate evangelical Christians try to "impose their will" when get elected to office.
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Old December 4 2011, 11:32 PM   #710
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
(And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)
Are human lives more important than property rights? Yes. Rick would have been justified telling Herschel, too bad, old man, my people are staying right here. If I had been Rick, I would have said exactly that. And I would have stuck a gun in his face to make sure he got the point.

If Hershel had booted them off the farm, he would be exposing living people to danger in order to save dead people who as far as we know are unsaveable. The gang would not all have been able to bring themselves to leave the area, thinking Sophia was still in the woods. They would have split up, endangering everyone even more, especially those who keep combing the woods.

How long would it take for Darryl and Carol to give up? Most likely, they would have stuck with it until the zombies got them. It would only be a matter of time. Is it worth sacrificing their lives for Herschel's fucking property rights?

(And I'm assuming Herschel didn't realize there was a little girl zombie recently put in the barn - by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)

However, the writers have positioned Shane to be "right" only by dumb luck. When he started towards the barn, I honestly was thinking, Zombie Lunch! It could very well have turned out disasterously. Shane was acting like an out-of-control lunatic.

The fact that he was out of control, not the fact that he was willing to do anything he needed to safeguard Lori, Carl and Lori's unborn baby (if not the rest), is where the problem with him lies.

So basically, in that situation, I'd be Shane, but a whole hell of a lot more self-controlled. The group desperately needs a leader like that.
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Old December 5 2011, 12:21 AM   #711
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
That's why people hate evangelical Christians try to "impose their will" when get elected to office.
Funny, cause I hate when secularists try to impose their will but hey that's alright in your book I bet. Double standard works fine.

And yes property rights go right out the window over human lives/needs in this case. Society has fundamentally changed. Not by legislation, not by vote but by force of nature that can't be controlled or reasoned with. The stupid redneck who cut off his own hand would've been shot by me long before. No time for bigots and racists in my group. It's survival time, get with the program. It's a new world.
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Old December 5 2011, 12:55 AM   #712
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

But if you say "property rights go out the window," at least completely, you're essentially arguing for ransacking and violence: the strong decide the weak don't "need" something and take it by violence
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Old December 5 2011, 01:10 AM   #713
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.
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Old December 5 2011, 01:32 AM   #714
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Vorta Claus wrote: View Post
by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)
Herschel clearly said in the finale that Otis did most of the zombie wrangling on his own. Which helps to explain why Herschel didn't know Sophia was in the barn.
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Old December 5 2011, 01:39 AM   #715
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.
Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.
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Old December 5 2011, 01:45 AM   #716
J.T.B.
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Re: What Hershel saw (and how it changed him)

the G-man wrote: View Post
AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?
And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.
But he said the walkers in the barn could be "restored." Finding a cure for an infectious disease might be realistic, bringing half-rotted corpses back to life is pretty clearly not.



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Old December 5 2011, 02:17 AM   #717
the G-man
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
AIDS was similar to the zombie plague in the beginning -- when you had the virus, it WAS a death sentence. But drugs were developed so that people like Magic Johnson could celebrate 20 years of living despite the death sentence.

How unrealistic would be for Hershel to have that same hope in mind?
And, in fact, Hershel mentioned AIDS and AIDS hysteria very early on when discussing the plague with Rick.
But he said the walkers in the barn could be "restored." Finding a cure for an infectious disease might be realistic, bringing half-rotted corpses back to life is pretty clearly not.
I understand that. I wasn't saying Hershel was right. I'm just saying that argument, however deluded, was established to be running through his mind.

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.
Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.
Yeah. I understand what probably WOULD happen. But that doesn't mean I approve or advocate that it SHOULD happen.
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Old December 5 2011, 03:14 AM   #718
Captain Craig
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.
Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.
Agree, just noting that Shane's justification, albeit a bit crazed in it's presentation, have merit.
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Old December 5 2011, 03:24 AM   #719
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

Vorta Claus wrote: View Post
Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
(And even though things have changed, are a person's property rights suddenly null and void?)
Are human lives more important than property rights? Yes. Rick would have been justified telling Herschel, too bad, old man, my people are staying right here. If I had been Rick, I would have said exactly that. And I would have stuck a gun in his face to make sure he got the point.

If Hershel had booted them off the farm, he would be exposing living people to danger in order to save dead people who as far as we know are unsaveable. The gang would not all have been able to bring themselves to leave the area, thinking Sophia was still in the woods. They would have split up, endangering everyone even more, especially those who keep combing the woods.

How long would it take for Darryl and Carol to give up? Most likely, they would have stuck with it until the zombies got them. It would only be a matter of time. Is it worth sacrificing their lives for Herschel's fucking property rights?

(And I'm assuming Herschel didn't realize there was a little girl zombie recently put in the barn - by Otis? But why would Otis be out zombie-catching on his own? One of the others would have been with him. If Herschel knew that girl most likely was the one everyone was searching for, it's absolutely unconscienable for him to have said nothing, and allow them to continue to expose themselves to danger for no reason. Darryl almost died!)

However, the writers have positioned Shane to be "right" only by dumb luck. When he started towards the barn, I honestly was thinking, Zombie Lunch! It could very well have turned out disasterously. Shane was acting like an out-of-control lunatic.

The fact that he was out of control, not the fact that he was willing to do anything he needed to safeguard Lori, Carl and Lori's unborn baby (if not the rest), is where the problem with him lies.

So basically, in that situation, I'd be Shane, but a whole hell of a lot more self-controlled. The group desperately needs a leader like that.
Lots of valid points. But the thing I like is that Shane was right about the big picture. His first reaction upon learning about the barn: "We clear it out or we go." That's spot on. Anything in between is ultimately going to be a fiasco, as we saw. Far from being a complete nut, Shane offers the leader a choice; Rick refuses to make one while clearly wanting to stay. Humoring Hershel is a half measure when full measures are needed, to quote Breaking Bad.

It's the half measures that caused the end. Would Shane have been so out of control about it absent that surreal moment with Rick and Hershel walking their walkers? Absent arguing with people he thinks have completely lost it? Probably not. Half measures made it worse.

Shane and Rick kind of remind me of Kirk split in two on the original Star Trek. Rick has the inner strength the group needs to sustain itself, but he's vacillating and indecisive. Shane has decisiveness in spades, but he doesn't have control of himself deep down.
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Old December 5 2011, 10:44 AM   #720
RJDementia13
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

^^ Ironic that Shane's breakdown was triggered by thinking that Rick had lost it.

the G-man wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Captain Craig wrote: View Post
^^^
Watch Panic in the Year Zero, a dated film from I think the 50's but the point is also evident in Tom Cruises War of the Worlds, the weak, the soft will be left behind or put into tow with the strong.
Mankind is still an animal, we just pretend we are above such things, and when push comes to shove I'm sorry but The Joker in TDK is right. He just didn't push enough.
Thankfully, this show has so far been about people hanging on to their Humanity in the face of a dehumanizing apocalypse. That's what has made it great, and hopefully that's how it will continue.
Yeah. I understand what probably WOULD happen. But that doesn't mean I approve or advocate that it SHOULD happen.
I think probably both would happen. You'd have enclaves of people who would revert to barbarism (some of them welcoming it) and some who could maintain civilization. Just like in any other situation, like natural disaster or war, you have the people that use the opportunity to steal or rape, and you have the people who help others and work to rebuild. I'm just happy that the heroes of this show are the ones who hang on to their standards.

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
Agree, just noting that Shane's justification, albeit a bit crazed in it's presentation, have merit.
You mean that collecting Zombies is dangerous? Yeah, that's for sure-- but the situation was stable for the moment until he went off the rails.
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