RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,345
Posts: 5,353,917
Members: 24,620
Currently online: 520
Newest member: StarTrekSteve

TrekToday headlines

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate To Brave the Storm.
Outstanding 8 11.11%
Above Average 24 33.33%
Average 26 36.11%
Below Average 9 12.50%
Poor 5 6.94%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 2 2011, 05:07 PM   #136
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

I think that ship has long since sailed. The Federation has always been portrayed as a benevolent imperialist state with plenty of colonies and protectorates.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2 2011, 05:52 PM   #137
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think that ship has long since sailed. The Federation has always been portrayed as a benevolent imperialist state with plenty of colonies and protectorates.
Well, the sense that I always got was that its colonies were settlements created on uninhabited worlds by the Federation, with Federation citizens forming the new colony's populace, not oppressing or displacing any native peoples -- and with the colonies themselves being an intermediate step towards the formation of a new Federation Member. Deneva and Cestus being examples of colonies that became full Members in their own rights, for instance.

As for protectorates -- that's a bit different. A protectorate is still a sovereign state, it's merely one that a more powerful state has agreed to defend from external threats. They don't get to send representatives to the more powerful state's legislature, because they aren't in any way part of that more powerful state. They still have absolute sovereignty over their own affairs, and can terminate the relationship at any point. So that doesn't equate to Federation imperialism at all.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2 2011, 09:54 PM   #138
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Thats why I prefer to think that the Federation offers a protectorate programme similar to the Asgard and otherwise leaves the day to day operations and sovereignty of the local governments to themselves.
Chemahkuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2 2011, 10:09 PM   #139
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Wasn't that pretty much what they were doing with the Evora in Insurrection and what Bajor was during DS9's TV run?
__________________
My name is Max. My world is fire and blood. - Mad Max: Fury Road coming May 15, 2015
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2 2011, 10:55 PM   #140
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

JD wrote: View Post
Wasn't that pretty much what they were doing with the Evora in Insurrection and what Bajor was during DS9's TV run?
Pretty much. At least as far as Bajor goes, it remained a sovereign world, capable of terminating its relationship with the UFP at any point, but the Federation was committed to defending Bajor. But in no way did the Federation claim Bajor as its own territory, nor was there ever any indication of Bajor having a "non-voting member" on the Federation Council (unlike Puerto Rico's relationship with the U.S., where P.R. is U.S. territory, but it doesn't have say real voice in Congress or presidential elections, just a non-voting Resident Commissioner). (Well, until Bajor was formally accepted as a Federation Member, of course.) Presumably, the same is true of the Evora.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2011, 11:16 PM   #141
Relayer1
Commodore
 
Relayer1's Avatar
 
Location: The Black Country, England
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Well, got a bit sidetracked but just finished it - enjoyed it too. Could have been a bit longer and more detailed in places but that wasn't the authors decision.

I have a few questions though (I think we are safely past the 'Spoiler' period) :

How did Starfleet 'win' when it was just the Romulan Earth invasion fleet that was routed. We didn't 'beat' Nazi Germany at the end of The Battle Of Britain...

Why did Trip stay 'dead' (surely his friends and family knew) ? Was it to protect the deep cover Vulcan spy who presumably survived too.

Was she a Vulcan agent ? Why would she refuse to shoot Trip but then toss a bomb into his escape pod, and how did they both survive ?

In the 25 years later epilogue only Archer, Trip, T'Pol and Hoshi are mentioned as 'surviving' at that point. Does that mean the others are deceased ?

I'd assume Phlox had returned home and Malcolm would be Chief of Staff to President Archer. Travis must have crashed one too many spaceships...

With the Enterprise NX being decommissioned and next years calendar showing it being rebuilt with a new secondary hull, will it be recommissioned ?

We need answers - i.e. another novel...
__________________
Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...
Relayer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2011, 12:29 AM   #142
Lonemagpie
Writer
 
Lonemagpie's Avatar
 
Location: Yorkshire
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Chris McCarver wrote: View Post
Stephen! wrote: View Post
How many of their NX Class ships does Starfleet actually lose by the end of the war?
The NX-07 Intrepid features heavily in "Indistinguishable From Magic", set partly in 2262.
But was believed to be, and officially recorded as being, a casualty of the war.
__________________
"I got two modes with people- Bite, and Avoid"
Reading: Mr Mercedes (Stephen King)

Blog- http://lonemagpie.livejournal.com
Lonemagpie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 08:46 AM   #143
cal888
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: American Expat in So Paulo, Brazil
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

I read TGTMD when it first came out, but decided to hold off on reading the rest of the ENT relaunch until the Romulan War "trilogy" was released. During the last two weeks I re-read TGTMD, which despite the convoluted ret-coning of "These Are The Voyages" (why 2155 instead of 2161?) was a good book when it wasn't annoying the freaking hell out of me with its out of place Rihansu-isms and constant need to use Romulan or Klingon language proper nouns. Coridan's fate was a shocking plot development that really worked well.

Kobayashi Maru
was... just there. More annoying Rihansu-isms and fictional language proper nouns that always knocked me out of the narrative. I remember reading about half of an eBook version of this novel in 2008 but kinda giving up halfway through. You could get twice the story in half the space with some good editing, but I powered through this time. When getting to the actual Kobayashi Maru part the book really underperformed what should have been an awesome sequence.

The two Romulan War books themselves are shockingly bad. I finished To Brave the Storm today, which managed to be worse than "These Are The Voyages" which at least had a botched plausible deniability with its holodeck recreation. I realize behind the scenes two trade paperbacks were hacked down into a space 1/4 of what was originally planned, but this can't explain completely losing the plot with Sopek/Ch'iev, the other Vulcan machinations, or the incredibly rushed ending that just throws everything into the air-- what will the characters be doing now, Enterprise being retired, war over, birth of the Federation, Trip rescued off screen.

This series has to be the worst Star Trek books I have read in over ten years -- worse than Red Sector, Ship of the Line, Chainmail, the Christie Golden VGR relaunch. What a wasted opportunity. I hope in 5-10 years someone relaunches the post season 4 ENT storyline from scratch and fixes not only TATV but this botched mess too. This could have been epic.
cal888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 02:50 PM   #144
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

cal888 wrote: View Post
...the convoluted ret-coning of "These Are The Voyages" (why 2155 instead of 2161?)
Because TATV doesn't really make sense as a story set in 2161. The script, so I gather, was originally written to take place in 2155 but got hastily rewritten for a 2161 setting when the show was cancelled. And that introduced a number of anomalies. Why has nobody advanced in rank or position in six years? Why has Trip and T'Pol's relationship been in stasis for the same duration? Why is there no mention of the Earth-Romulan War? Why does Deanna say that the alliance established here is just the first step toward the Federation, rather than the actual formation of the Federation itself? The account as presented in the episode doesn't really hold together. It's a better fit to 2155 than it is to the alleged 2161 date. So The Good That Men Do explained those discrepancies by positing that the historical account, like the teleplay, had been adjusted to look like it happened in 2161 rather than the original setting of 2155.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 07:44 PM   #145
cal888
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: American Expat in So Paulo, Brazil
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
cal888 wrote: View Post
...the convoluted ret-coning of "These Are The Voyages" (why 2155 instead of 2161?)
Because TATV doesn't really make sense as a story set in 2161. The script, so I gather, was originally written to take place in 2155 but got hastily rewritten for a 2161 setting when the show was cancelled. And that introduced a number of anomalies. Why has nobody advanced in rank or position in six years? Why has Trip and T'Pol's relationship been in stasis for the same duration? Why is there no mention of the Earth-Romulan War? Why does Deanna say that the alliance established here is just the first step toward the Federation, rather than the actual formation of the Federation itself? The account as presented in the episode doesn't really hold together. It's a better fit to 2155 than it is to the alleged 2161 date. So The Good That Men Do explained those discrepancies by positing that the historical account, like the teleplay, had been adjusted to look like it happened in 2161 rather than the original setting of 2155.
True, TATV is a mess. But I just find it hard to believe that, short of a super computer worm and memory wipes of everyone who would have been studying the war, an amazing Section 31 conspiracy was able to alter the historical record of the ranks of Sato, Reed, and Mayweather, and insert Trip as the chief engineer for six years, just to provide deflection to when exactly he went undercover. Plus To Brave the Storm has Enterprise retired after the Battle of Cheron, while TATV has the ship active for almost another year! It's easy to fake someone's death -- but the whole need to make it fit 2155 rather than 2161 just adds so many additional complications. I think it's easier to believe that potentially Sato et al declined promotions to stay in their current positions (well, VGR didn't really promote people so precedent there) and that T'Pol was very private about her personal life, so that 200 years later the existing records may be ambiguous about her relationship.

Just have Trip fake his death in 2161 to deal with some issue with the Romulans after the end of the war (like the warp 7 project etc) and this becomes far less complicated.

No mention of E-R war -- got me. Could have just not come up. Troi's remark could just mean this is the first step toward the Federation we know today.

I guess I feel the 2161 evil is the lesser evil to the 2155 evil. Plus the 22nd century part of the ENT relaunch never explained why everything had to be doctored to push Trip's "death" forward until 2161.

I just wish the rest of the ENT relaunch had maintained the quality of TGTMD, complications and all.
cal888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 08:08 PM   #146
MatthiasRussell
Fleet Captain
 
MatthiasRussell's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

^Well, you're not alone. May people were disappointed with how the ENT books went considering they started out so promising. To me it wasn't problems with the plot but problems with the writing. I'm done reading anything by Michael Martin myself. I think ENT has a lot of potential if they just get a quality author in there.

But at present I'm like you Cal888, just as let down as I was after watching These Are The Voyages. It is like the ENT relaunch went full circle.
__________________
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"
MatthiasRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2012, 09:53 PM   #147
cal888
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: American Expat in So Paulo, Brazil
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

^ Yeah, the writing too. Like, having a "poop" reference every 50 pages? Forgetting Gannet Brooks was a Starfleet Intelligence asset?

There are several good ideas here though to be fair:
-- Trip faking his death / TATV not being what it seemed

-- The need to cover up the Romulan/Vulcan connection that explains why no member of the general population saw a Romulan (and lived)

-- How Coridan became underpopulated and why the Draylaxians weren't a prominate species in the 23rd/24th centuries

-- The ECS Horizon contaminating Sigma Iotia's culture rather than a Starfleet ship

-- The origin of Chakotay's colony

But, um, aside from those, eesh.
cal888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2012, 04:23 AM   #148
pookha
Admiral
 
pookha's Avatar
 
Location: pookha
View pookha's Twitter Profile
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
cal888 wrote: View Post
...the convoluted ret-coning of "These Are The Voyages" (why 2155 instead of 2161?)
Because TATV doesn't really make sense as a story set in 2161. The script, so I gather, was originally written to take place in 2155 but got hastily rewritten for a 2161 setting when the show was cancelled. And that introduced a number of anomalies. Why has nobody advanced in rank or position in six years? Why has Trip and T'Pol's relationship been in stasis for the same duration? Why is there no mention of the Earth-Romulan War? Why does Deanna say that the alliance established here is just the first step toward the Federation, rather than the actual formation of the Federation itself? The account as presented in the episode doesn't really hold together. It's a better fit to 2155 than it is to the alleged 2161 date. So The Good That Men Do explained those discrepancies by positing that the historical account, like the teleplay, had been adjusted to look like it happened in 2161 rather than the original setting of 2155.
well tatv dosnt make sense in context of pegasus much less enterprise itself.
i just hope some future enterprise book throws it out by saying it was a hologram created while someone was drunk. in an effort to discredit riker by making it look like riker was playing around on the holodeck in midst of a crisis.

to me the big issue with the book is it really shows that this book is a compressed version of two. major plot lines are dropped,, major events are described as an after thought.big gaps between point a to b.
__________________
avatar by
?
pookha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2012, 11:02 AM   #149
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Personally, I wish the Enterprise novels had simply filled in the years between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages", ending with Trip's death being revealed as a fake.

Something other than one long, tedious war.
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4 2012, 01:51 AM   #150
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Enterprise: The Romulan War: To Brave the Storm review thread

Well, canon already established the war as having lasted from 2156-2160, so they didn't really have much a choice when it came to how long the war lasted. I guess there are ways they could have worked around it, but to me this seems like a situation where the simple way works best.
__________________
My name is Max. My world is fire and blood. - Mad Max: Fury Road coming May 15, 2015
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.