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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 30 2011, 07:38 PM   #406
DonIago
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Saw it when it first aired, and I rather liked the episode, especially as a sort of Ferengi "Crying Game". I think I wasn't clear on whether the Dominion thing was going to prove to be a one-off or something with repercussions, but I was intrigued by the latter aspect to be sure.

I rather like the sneaking of something so consequential into an episode that appears to be insignificant for the most part.
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Old November 30 2011, 08:35 PM   #407
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I like that this major reference to the Dominion happened in this inconsequential comedy episode that would in later years would probably get classified as a filler episode. You don't really take them seriously, because they've been brought up in a Ferengi episode, and those aren't supposed to be major tales, right?

But my clear memories of watching first run DS9 aren't until the later seasons either, so I don't know how effective it was at the time.
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Old November 30 2011, 09:05 PM   #408
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I remember watching it when it first aired and it did pique my interest. If they had developed the Dominion more fully in this episode I probably would have written it off as a one shot deal. But, the fact that they left it so ambiguous told me that there were things to come with this thing called the Dominion.
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Old November 30 2011, 09:30 PM   #409
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

This was the episode were we find out that women couldn't do business in Farengi Society right? I think overtime I've come to like this episode because when you see the overall Farengi arc of the series, this episode and The Negus (Which I just watched the other day) were the building blocks to correcting the farengi damage done by TNG. In that sense, I think this was one of the better Farengi shows they did, only for it to get worse as the series went along.
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Old November 30 2011, 09:34 PM   #410
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think one strong point that this episode has is that it shows that Quark does have his limits - which will be exploded more fully in later episodes. He could have thrown Pel to the wolves, but when push came to shove, he did the right thing.
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Old November 30 2011, 09:57 PM   #411
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
Saw it when it first aired, and I rather liked the episode, especially as a sort of Ferengi "Crying Game".
The Crying Game? I don't know what all the hoopla's about.



I got more of a Yentl vibe from this episode. And I recall liking it when I watched it.
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Old November 30 2011, 10:28 PM   #412
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think this episode is alright, though only when compared to other Ferengi episodes. It doesn't have Ishka for a start! At least it tried to look at female Ferengi in a serious way.

Way back when I saw the series for the first time, I honestly couldn't remember that the Dominion had been brought up before The Jem'Hadar. I was only just getting into the series really, so didn't really remember what came before. I was far more impressed during my first rewatch of the show how far ahead they were namedropping though.

Having said that though, this episode and Sanctuary, the other episode where they were referenced, were both very average. It's funny that the references were in these episodes, before we get blown away by The Jem'Hadar.

But I'm way ahead of myself.
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Old December 1 2011, 04:47 AM   #413
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
It doesn't have Ishka for a start!
QFT!

I can't stand Ishka!
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Old December 1 2011, 11:22 PM   #414
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ishka is great, annoying and whining... By the way Admiral Shran I like what you've done to Kira's mouth. Thumbs up for ruining such a nice-looking face!
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Old December 1 2011, 11:26 PM   #415
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Necessary Evil (****)

When this episode comes up in discussions it is often pointed out that it sets the show apart from TNG because Kira actually killed a guy. And I guess that my response to that is "So?" She was a member of of resistance movement during an occupation, collaborators are routinely killed in these kinds of situations, it's not unexpected that Kira would have carried out such an act in her past. DS9 set itself apart by putting her in the show in the first place, this episode doesn't change my opinion of the character much. Kira has killed lots of people, some of them were probably civilians that were caught in the crossfire, and killing a man that claimed to be a civilian when he was secretly working with the occupiers seems like the lesser of those two crimes. It wasn't even premeditated murder, she was caught trying to steal his info and she either had to kill him or allow herself to be captured and executed. I'm not saying it was right, I'm not making any moral judgements, I'm just saying that it's not as shocking as some make it out to be.

I have some minor issues with this episode. Firstly, there's Odo's log entries. I get that they were going for a film noir feel for this episode and the log entries play into that, but they just didn't sound like Odo to me, they came across as forced. Secondly, Rom's characterisation gave me whiplash. He spent the previous episode concerned about losing his brother's affections, but in this episode he wants him to die again because he wants to own the bar. If this episode had come a couple of episodes before Rules of Acquisition it wouldn't have been a big deal, but here it felt like a stab at humour that missed the mark.

However, I consider those to be minor faults in an otherwise great episode. Seeing the station during the occupation was fantastic, as were seeing Odo's first interactions with Dukat, Kira, and Odo. Dukat's in particular was excellent, you almost believe him when he says that he wants Odo to find the killer so that he doesn't have to go through the brutality of killing 10 innocent Bajorans, when the truth is that he knows Odo is the best hope of routing out members of the Bajoran underground. A part of me wonders if Dukat actually believes his own lie. It's fascinating seeing these four characters in their first entanglements with one another, especially knowing the important roles they're going to play in one another's lives. Also, after hearing so much about the horrors of the occupation, it's about time that we got to see how bad things were back then.
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Old December 2 2011, 12:13 AM   #416
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Necessary Evil is, simply put, necessary DS9.

I'll get my coat.

It's essential viewing, and one of season two's best episodes. I'd even go so far to say that I'd push it all the way to five stars, and say it's one of DS9's top twenty episodes.

I just love it so much. I know that we've been used to Kira's terrorist history since DS9 started, and all the subsequent years since it went off air, which I may feel may influence our opinion of the episode. I don't think it gets in the way of Necessary Evil being a classic though. The scenes in the past are brilliantly done, and I love Odo piecing together things in the present. His confrontation with Kira is particularly strong, and left me open-mouthed.

The Rom stuff is silly but it's a miniscule part of the episode. Badly placed? I agree with that.
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Old December 2 2011, 12:39 AM   #417
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Necessary Evil is definitely one of best episodes of Season 2, probably tied with The Jem'Hadar. I never really understood why, but season 2 of DS9 had many good episodes, but they lacked that special quality about them. Season 3 had this to a lesser extent, while season 4 was almost flawless in my eyes.

I think 'the shock' is that Kira for all this time has lied to Odo, and with their friendship they have been open in matters they consider important. I also think Odo was a little hurt, and confused, by the fact that Kira had pulled the wool over his eyes successfully, and if she hadn't done that she would be facing a Cardassian firing squad.

Personally that sort of thing would make me feel very strange, conflicted and pained. Perhaps that's why it seems so significant. I don't think Rom was out of character. Of course he would want his brother to die, then he would realize his (Rom) lifelong dream of owning the bar!

You just have to remember that Ferengi are a paradox of morality. On hand they do love their family, but on the other would sell their own family members (or want bad things to happen to the family) if they could get massive leverage or financial gain. Once you really understand the Ferengi, such contradictory behaviour makes perfect sense.

That is why I think the Ferengi episodes, and Ferengi in general, on DS9 are so awesome, and funny!
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Old December 2 2011, 12:54 AM   #418
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I liked this one, too. It's amazing what turning the lights down did for the atmosphere.
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Old December 2 2011, 04:49 AM   #419
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
When this episode comes up in discussions it is often pointed out that it sets the show apart from TNG because Kira actually killed a guy.
That's odd because it's not the focus of the episode (which is Kira deceiving Odo, not Kira killing the guy).

Overall, I think you're underrating this episode quite a bit. The monologues might over-emphasize the noir mood to a degree, but they're also frequently hilarious (for example Odo's comment about humanity's urge to store records of everything).

Beyond that, this episode introduced Terok Nor and thereby added a whole extra dimension to the show that had been missing previously and would be exploited on numerous occasions in the future, either directly or indirectly (for example, at the end of Call to Arms). When an episode makes an important contribution to the overall fabric of the series like that, while being awesome in its own right, that's about as much as a single episode can really accomplish.

For example, The Jem'hadar makes a big contribution to the series, but as an episode, it's not on the same level.
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Old December 2 2011, 05:25 AM   #420
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
That's odd because it's not the focus of the episode (which is Kira deceiving Odo, not Kira killing the guy).
I've read several DS9 first-timer threads and that point comes up pretty much every time. As for Kira deceiving Odo, I can kinda see it, but not really. Kira didn't know Odo back then and it's made clear earlier in the episode that they haven't talked about those events since that time. I'm not going to bring up events from my past that I'm ashamed about unless I'm prompted into doing so, I don't see why Kira should be expected to do differently.

Overall, I think you're underrating this episode quite a bit. The monologues might over-emphasize the noir mood to a degree, but they're also frequently hilarious (for example Odo's comment about humanity's urge to store records of everything).
Which doesn't even make sense, Odo worked for the Cardassians and the show has previously described them as meticulous record-keepers. The idea that they didn't insist on Odo recording a log, or that Odo suddenly finds Starfleet's requirements overly burdensome, they seem kind of weird.

Yes, I'm nit-picking, that's what I do, I pick nits. I picked the nits out of Voyager and now I'm doing the same to DS9 so that nobody can accuse me for being a Trekist.

When an episode makes an important contribution to the overall fabric of the series like that, while being awesome in its own right, that's about as much as a single episode can really accomplish.
And some great episodes contain annoyances that lose them points. That's always the way my scores have worked.
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