Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans?

[Dr. Crusher]

I don't think "Nemesis" was terrible, but I think there was a lot about it that made it a good, rather than a great, Trek film. The Remans weren't a bad idea, but since it was advertised to be the last TNG film, it may have been served better by focusing on adversaries that were more familiar. In addition, even those who may have gone to see the film that weren't huge TNG fans would have known at least something about the Romulans.

[JWD75]

I didn't like the Remans and i think that the movie would have been better off without them. On top of everything their make-up looked ridiculous.

I was really excited for this movie when I heard the early reports about it. I was especially happy when I heard that John Logan was writing it because Gladiator is one of my favorite movies. My excitement quickly vanished when I saw the trailer. I've never seen a worse trailer in my life - it made the movie seem lifeless, tired and bland. I had almost no interest in seeing the movie after seeing the trailer. I would bet good money that the trailer cost Nemesis a good part of its potential audience and is one of the factors - and there are many - for why the movie failed so miserably.

[WarsTrek1993]

At least the movie doesn't have any comments about Androids' bottoms....

[T'Girl]

Or androids questioning Klingons on the firmness of their boobs.

[Balrog]

Berman Trek was becoming stagnant. Your casual viewer wouldn't know Berman from a hole in the wall, yes. But they sure as hell knew that other sic-fi and fantasy fare such as LOTR and The Matrix were passing Trek by in style as well as substance. NEM looked old. NEM looked like it was made on the cheap. NEM's story was in no way innovative.

That's why it failed.

[MANT!]

I'll let the following answer for me...

[Dukhat]

While Nemesis had many flaws, the OP only wants to know if the movie would have been better without the Remans, so I'll attempt to answer that question.

First of all, I don't think the problem was the existence of the Remans per se. For decades we all knew of the existence of Remus (or Romii, or RomII depending on your take of the Neutral Zone diagram in "Balance of Terror"), but previous fandom simply believed that this second planet was also populated by Romulans as well. That's certainly what the early Diane Duane novels implied. Since there was absolutely no canon information up to that point about the Remans or Remus, if someone wanted to come along and reinterpret the Remans as being some kind of Romulan lower-class slave race that does all the grunt work in the Empire, that would have been fine with me.

The problem was the actual portrayal of the Remans in the movie. Contrary to KingDaniel's assertion that he thinks that space vampires are cool, I thought the Remans were not cool. They were basically Nosferatu rejects with costumes straight out of a Tim Burton Batman movie. They looked like vampires for no other reason than that they were supposed to be "EEEVVVIIILLLLL!!!!!" They were complete cardboard villains, and even the great Ron Perlman was completely wasted in this film. I think that at some point between the idea for this movie and what was eventually filmed, we the audience were supposed to feel sorry for these poor creatures because they were enslaved, but nowhere did I feel the least bit of sympathy for them for the reasons stated above. And to top it all off, the film didn't even have the courtesy to make it clear about just what the Remans' origins were. Were they originally Vulcans like the Romulans? Were they aliens that were already living on Remus when the Romulans arrived 2,000 years ago? If they were originally Vulcans, how could they possibly have changed to look like they do in only 2,000 years? Why would they have developed fangs?

Nor did I ever feel that Shinzon really gave a crap about the Remans despite what he said about wanting to liberate them, but of course that has more to do with Shinzon's problems as a character than the Remans themselves.

I do think the Remans were necessary to the overall story, but that they really needed to be presented in a completely different way, and have the audience care more about them. But the film didn't do either of those things.

[DarKush]

Lloyd_Dobler wrote:

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Berman Trek was becoming stagnant. Your casual viewer wouldn't know Berman from a hole in the wall, yes. But they sure as hell knew that other sic-fi and fantasy fare such as LOTR and The Matrix were passing Trek by in style as well as substance. NEM looked old. NEM looked like it was made on the cheap. NEM's story was in no way innovative.

That's why it failed.

I agree with a lot of that. I remember feeling that the crew looked so old, tired, and bloated when I saw Nemesis in the theater. The whole affair just felt tired with even the reaction to Data's death being muted. Heck, even Riker's reaction to Troi's mind rape was a bit tame. He should've beamed over to the Scimitar and beat the stuffing out of Shinzon, or at least made the attempt. And if not him, Worf.

Even though I didn't think the Remans should've been included, or made so monstrous, I don't think they were the sole problem. I wish the Berman had had confidence that the Romulans were good enough to carry a film and that they were more multidimensional-potentially-than the Remans could be. That being said, I am finally glad that we got to see a subject species in the Romulan Empire. I got tired of seeing these 'empires' composed of just one species.

There was a sense of stagnation and it was evident in ENT too. Compared to BSG and LOST, plus many of the other genre shows of that time, it just didn't feel vital, it wasn't gripping, it rarely had you on the edge of your seat. ENT is better in retrospect than the first time around, but that doesn't mean much since I don't think it did enough of its job when it should've to hook in viewers. NEM didn't either.

[DarKush]

Dukhat wrote:

---

While Nemesis had many flaws, the OP only wants to know if the movie would have been better without the Remans, so I'll attempt to answer that question.

First of all, I don't think the problem was the existence of the Remans per se. For decades we all knew of the existence of Remus (or Romii, or RomII depending on your take of the Neutral Zone diagram in "Balance of Terror"), but previous fandom simply believed that this second planet was also populated by Romulans as well. That's certainly what the early Diane Duane novels implied. Since there was absolutely no canon information up to that point about the Remans or Remus, if someone wanted to come along and reinterpret the Remans as being some kind of Romulan lower-class slave race that does all the grunt work in the Empire, that would have been fine with me.

The problem was the actual portrayal of the Remans in the movie. Contrary to KingDaniel's assertion that he thinks that space vampires are cool, I thought the Remans were not cool. They were basically Nosferatu rejects with costumes straight out of a Tim Burton Batman movie. They looked like vampires for no other reason than that they were supposed to be "EEEVVVIIILLLLL!!!!!" They were complete cardboard villains, and even the great Ron Perlman was completely wasted in this film. I think that at some point between the idea for this movie and what was eventually filmed, we the audience were supposed to feel sorry for these poor creatures because they were enslaved, but nowhere did I feel the least bit of sympathy for them for the reasons stated above. And to top it all off, the film didn't even have the courtesy to make it clear about just what the Remans' origins were. Were they originally Vulcans like the Romulans? Were they aliens that were already living on Remus when the Romulans arrived 2,000 years ago? If they were originally Vulcans, how could they possibly have changed to look like they do in only 2,000 years? Why would they have developed fangs?

Nor did I ever feel that Shinzon really gave a crap about the Remans despite what he said about wanting to liberate them, but of course that has more to do with Shinzon's problems as a character than the Remans themselves.

I do think the Remans were necessary to the overall story, but that they really needed to be presented in a completely different way, and have the audience care more about them. But the film didn't do either of those things.

I agree with you about the Remans being presented differently, and about their overly monstrous appearance. But I do think that Shinzon cared about them. He seemed to have a father-son relationship with his Viceroy and his best scene to me was his talk with Picard about Reman liberation. I wish this had been expanded on more. It would've given Shinzon more depth, but NEM was bound and determined to make sure the audience knew he was evil, so they undercut his nice speech with Troi's mind rape, just to remind the audience that Shinzon wasn't sympathetic, as if his slow walk intro from the shadows wasn't a big enough clue.

I also disagree that the Remans were supposed to be seen as sympathetic. From their conception as vampiric-looking beings, they were supposed to be monsters, and the Federation or Picard evinced little sympathy for them (not like his standing with the Ba'ku). And the Remans were pretty two-dimensional and brutish. They were not supposed to be characters or a species that was meant to be understood. Even the Son'a got more development and a backstory (as you pointed out the Remans didn't, and I agree we should've learned more about them). This could've been done during the Shinzon-Picard dinner.

Ultimately I don't think the Remans were needed. Shinzon could've easily been a renegade Romulan captain. The only thing that would've been lost is the clone angle. Also the excuse to get Picard into the action is already provided by the Enterprise being the flagship. If the new Praetor wanted a meeting, they would likely send Picard anyway. There was no need for the Remans (since Shinzon wasn't developed enough to make him a liberator and what little was done for that was dashed by turning him into a genocidal rapist). And the B-4 story wasn't needed either. Heck, taking out the Remans could've been the linchpin to making the movie better overall since it would've perhaps erased the need for B-4. And you had Ron Pearlman already, he could've been the main villain, though I could see him more as a Klingon or Jem'Hadar.

[smalltalk66]

The Remans were NOT cool. They were, in actuality, straight up rip-offs of the alien villians from the Last Starfighter movie--right down to the bickering between Shinzon and his Viceroy. Hell, even Worf's line in First Contact ("Prepare for ramming speed") was lifted directly from the Last Starfighter. Not cool.

[horatio83]

NEM was such a great opportunity, the first Trek movie in which the Romulans take center stage.
But then the vampires from the dark side of the moon took over the Romulan Empire and made the Romulans look ridiculous.
ST09 was such a great opportunity, the first Trek movie in which Vulcans and Romulans take center stage.
But then the Romulans shaved their heads, got wicked tattoos, wielded nasty pole weapons and looked ridiculous.

Villains who twirl their mustaches ...

[Satyrquaze]

I liked Nemesis, but it has it's flaws, maybe we could compromise:

Shinzon still could have been a clone or something, but they really did NOT need to create the Remans. The plot would have gotten on just fine without them. The new Preator could have been a known Romulan. Like Tomalak or Sela; not some new character created just for the film.

Not that it would have been a successful film finanically given it's competition, but it would have been more enjoyable overall at least to me.

[Uxi]

The Remans are one of the few things I like about Nemesis. More about them settling the score with the Romulans could have been good and instead of yet another attack at Earth, the Ent-E could have been trying to prevent the Scimitar's use against Romulus, perhaps.

Ditch the clone angle and anything to do with B4 and the dune buggy plz.

[DarKush]

Satyrquaze wrote:

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I liked Nemesis, but it has it's flaws, maybe we could compromise:

Shinzon still could have been a clone or something, but they really did NOT need to create the Remans. The plot would have gotten on just fine without them. The new Preator could have been a known Romulan. Like Tomalak or Sela; not some new character created just for the film.

Not that it would have been a successful film finanically given it's competition, but it would have been more enjoyable overall at least to me.

With your idea, I don't see the need for including a clone at all. If you want a Romulan praetor (who I am assuming would be the main villain) what is the point of having a clone? Unless you want to use the clone to replace Picard?

I did like some of the rumored ideas I heard about Picard already being replaced by a clone. I think that could've been an interesting way to go. But really, I don't think NEM needed a clone villain or the Remans.

I also don't buy that competition alone killed the film. It didn't just under perform, it bombed domestically. If the film had been good, to Trek fans alone, then it could've had a decent enough run, and you might could say that stiff competition kept it from earning more. But since it bombed, competition alone isn't the reason it failed. And I'm saying this as a person that came to appreciate NEM upon a second viewing. It's not completely bad, there are potentially good ideas there that just aren't realized.

[Morpheus 02]

DarKush wrote:

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With your idea, I don't see the need for including a clone at all. If you want a Romulan praetor (who I am assuming would be the main villain) what is the point of having a clone? Unless you want to use the clone to replace Picard?

I did like some of the rumored ideas I heard about Picard already being replaced by a clone. I think that could've been an interesting way to go. But really, I don't think NEM needed a clone villain or the Remans.

I also don't buy that competition alone killed the film. It didn't just under perform, it bombed domestically. If the film had been good, to Trek fans alone, then it could've had a decent enough run, and you might could say that stiff competition kept it from earning more. But since it bombed, competition alone isn't the reason it failed. And I'm saying this as a person that came to appreciate NEM upon a second viewing. It's not completely bad, there are potentially good ideas there that just aren't realized.

No, competition by itself wasn't the reason, but it was a major factor, and especially when you compare the "hype" & attitude between the 2.

Return of the King was an EVENT, certainly for me. i took a day off of work so i could see the midnight show with about 10 friends. We were waiting a year for it.

And i would have been excited to see it again in the theaters (and still am, catching a few minutes when it re-runs for the 1,245th time on SPike).

The Phantom Menace a similar event, greatly anticipated.

With Nemesis it was more like "Well, it's got to be better than Insurrection, since it's an even-numered movie", and i planned to wait till Christmas to see it.

And while i went to see it with somefellow Trek fans....we certainly definitely didn't have the sense of excitement & urgency that i had seeing Return of the King on the first day.


I agree with most that the Remans were totally not necessary.

Romulans would have been great. And the "mind rape" thing could have been due to a "mutant" Romulan with special telepathy powers (due to be Vulcanoid). Maybe he could have touched Troi creating a sort of mind meld that can at least reach within a solar system.

If we had real Romulans instead of Remans, we could have an Undiscovered Country type of movie, which creates peace with the Romulans in a way that the Klingon peace treaty set the stage for a fuller handoff to TNG.

Tomalak would have been good, certainly for Trek fans, as a smart villain that could have a good reason to go against Picard (and maybe NOThave to die, as most villains do).