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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 25 2011, 12:06 AM   #346
Gotham Central
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

One thing that I did like about this episode that is not immediately apparent is that Winn's public betrayal of Jarro makes perfect sense.

The one thing that the writers do later on in the series is make it clear that Winn has no love for the Cardassians. She fought them in her own way during the occupation and would not willingly be a part of any scheme that would result in their return.

Winn, though power hungry, was always shown to be a patriot. Part of her issue with Sisko, as we later find out, is that she never understood why, despite her faith, loyalty, and personal suffering, did the Prophets choose an outsider as their emissary. I like that she ends up being far more complex than the manipulative schemer that she appears to be at the outset.
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Old November 25 2011, 03:36 AM   #347
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

That scene from nuBSG that you mentioned with The Line was one of the really striking things about that episode--the fact that it seemed truest to what you'd expect in real life, rather than a movie convention.

That said, I liked this trilogy. It's actually rather chilling in that it really resembles relations between Iraq, Iran, and the US after the Second Gulf War. Way ahead of its time.
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Old November 25 2011, 01:27 PM   #348
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

So Kira is really a hologram. It all makes perfect sense now.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That said, I liked this trilogy. It's actually rather chilling in that it really resembles relations between Iraq, Iran, and the US after the Second Gulf War. Way ahead of its time.
I'm probably really showcasing my ignorance here, but I don't see the connection.
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Old November 25 2011, 05:03 PM   #349
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
The one thing that the writers do later on in the series is make it clear that Winn has no love for the Cardassians. She fought them in her own way during the occupation and would not willingly be a part of any scheme that would result in their return.
Yeah, that's something I really liked about the episode, Winn wanted power but wasn't willing to take the risk of the Cardassians returning, and it was her desire to review the evidence that brought down Jaro. Even Jaro probably didn't know what was really going on.


Invasive Procedures (**)

Everyone that returned to the station at the end of the previous episode leaves again because of space rain, or something ridiculous like that. Some mercenaries use this as an opportunity to board the station and steal Odo's comm-badge. Poor Odo, the one time that he decides to wear a real one rather than faking it and it ends up being stolen. Then Verad arrives on the station, causing O'Brien to exclaim "You're a Trill!" Very good, Miles. When you see a Chinese man do you point at him and go "Chinese"? I hope not. Along for the ride are two stupid Klingons that shout every line of dialogue. I miss Worf and Martok.

The setup here is outlandish, but once you get past it the episode isn't too bad. It's all about the 90% of Trills that aren't given a symbiont because of their slight personality defects, such as obsessing over having a symbiont so much that you're willing to kidnap people and murder an innocent young woman. Or, worse, having social anxiety issues. John Glover does a good job of playing two personalities that are the same person, and there's some strong interactions between Sisko and Verad Dax where they are both friends and enemies at the same time. There's one odd scene where Jadzia wakes up after the surgery and cries about how alone and scared she feels without the symbiont and all Bashir does it talk about how the surgery went well and how she wont die. When she said "I've never felt so empty", I half expected Bashir to make an inappropriate joke about filling her up, such was the disconnect between what the two characters were saying.

My biggest issue with this episode remains what I consider to be the misuse of Quark in aiding the mercs onto the station. Sure, Quark didn't know what they were really planning, and he was instrumental in freeing Bashir and Odo, but there's no way he should have gone without any punishment for what he did. If I were Sisko I would have punched him so hard that he would have flown all the way to Ferenginar. As Kira said, Quark crossed the line here and the only way I'm able to forgive the character is to pretend it never happened at all.

There are some good ideas in this episode, but it's hampered by some poorly thought-out ones. The Circle trilogy was always going to be hard act to follow, but the momentum that has been with the series since Duet finally appears to have run out.

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Old November 25 2011, 06:30 PM   #350
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I see a whole host (...no pun intended) of problems with the fact that this episode is all about Verad stealing the Dax symbiont and then they barely touch on how Jadzia takes the theft of the symbiont. That's actually the biggest problem with the character of Jadzia, that they develop Curzon and Dax more than Jadzia. This would have been the opportunity to see Jadzia alone, see what her contribution to Dax was.
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Old November 25 2011, 07:45 PM   #351
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yeah, that's the problem with Jadzia's character right there. They sort of made it right with Ezri, but I didn't really appreciate how she was shoved down our throats during the final season.

EDIT - I thought I'd posted more than that. Oh well.

This was a very average episode, and it hurt the excellent rhythm that we'd had from the opening trilogy. Season two had a huge upswing in quality, and really showed DS9 getting onto its feet as a series. There were still average episodes peppered throghout, like this one, that keep it from being a classic season.
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Old November 25 2011, 07:53 PM   #352
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That said, I liked this trilogy. It's actually rather chilling in that it really resembles relations between Iraq, Iran, and the US after the Second Gulf War. Way ahead of its time.
I'm probably really showcasing my ignorance here, but I don't see the connection.
You can think of Iraq in this instance as Bajor--fractured and with tons of infighting, the US in the place of the Federation, trying to help the Iraqis find stability (think of the time before things started going better in al-Anbar Province), and the Iranians in the place of the Cardassians. Granted, the Iranians never occupied Iraq, but there is no doubt they want to expand their power into that area. And like the Cardassians did in the Circle Trilogy, they covertly fund Iraqi insurgents in hopes of taking down the Iraqi government and indirectly striking at the US.

So aside from the fact that the Iranians never occupied Iraq, the parallel fits.
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Old November 25 2011, 10:08 PM   #353
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Since there was really only one invasive procedure performed during this episode, I thought it was a blatant case of false advertising.

Unless you consider the surgery to restore Dax to Jadzia invasive, in which case I guess it works.
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Old November 25 2011, 10:56 PM   #354
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That said, I liked this trilogy. It's actually rather chilling in that it really resembles relations between Iraq, Iran, and the US after the Second Gulf War. Way ahead of its time.
I'm probably really showcasing my ignorance here, but I don't see the connection.
You can think of Iraq in this instance as Bajor--fractured and with tons of infighting, the US in the place of the Federation, trying to help the Iraqis find stability (think of the time before things started going better in al-Anbar Province), and the Iranians in the place of the Cardassians. Granted, the Iranians never occupied Iraq, but there is no doubt they want to expand their power into that area. And like the Cardassians did in the Circle Trilogy, they covertly fund Iraqi insurgents in hopes of taking down the Iraqi government and indirectly striking at the US.

So aside from the fact that the Iranians never occupied Iraq, the parallel fits.
I see where you're going, but for the analogy to work, the Federation would have to be the one who originally destabilized Bajor.

As for Quark in Invasive Procedures - I don't see how what he did was unforgivable. He tried to smuggle some merchandize; he had no idea they were planning to kidnap everyone, steal the Dax symbiont and murder Jadiza. Once he saw what was really going on, he stepped up and did the right thing. If I were to judge that as unforgivable, I'd also have to judge Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation the same way.

And, it's good to see that Trill culture looks down on people with social anxiety just like Human culture does.
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Old November 25 2011, 11:12 PM   #355
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Shouldn't Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation have been punished? That was treason.
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Old November 25 2011, 11:26 PM   #356
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Exactly, if he gets a pass, why shouldn't Quark get one here. Quark's misdeeds mostly came about through no fault of his, yet Odo knew full well what he was doing.
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Old November 25 2011, 11:46 PM   #357
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Shouldn't Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation have been punished? That was treason.
But Quark didn't have a closet conversation with Kira off screen. Clearly that makes all the difference.
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Old November 25 2011, 11:55 PM   #358
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Shatnertage wrote: View Post
Since there was really only one invasive procedure performed during this episode, I thought it was a blatant case of false advertising.
I figured that their invasion of the station was one of them too. After all, the title isn't "Invasive Medical Procedures"...
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Old November 26 2011, 12:02 AM   #359
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

mattyhugh wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Shouldn't Odo's actions during the Dominion Occupation have been punished? That was treason.
But Quark didn't have a closet conversation with Kira off screen. Clearly that makes all the difference.
Indeed. Clearly that and the fact that Odo gets to be one of the "heroes" while Quark is relegated to "anti-hero" status is what makes the difference.
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Old November 26 2011, 12:52 AM   #360
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Odo thing was stupid too, I'll be criticising that in good time. As for the Quark thing, while he has proven himself useful in certain circumstances, this time his greed has proven itself to be a major security risk and he should be kicked off the station. Intent doesn't matter (and let's not forget that his intent was also a felony), he disabled station security in the middle of a crisis and deserves to have the book thrown at him.

Also, on Shatnertage's suggestion, there's a new counter for coups d'état.

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