How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

[Tomalak]

Great find, I've never seen the set in that much detail. It's quite remarkable how closely it replicates the TMP model, down to the cradle at the front, and the pods in formations of twos.

I like the entrance cut into the side of the pod, and the decayed remains of further pods on the right. I imagine before Ceti Alpha VI "exploded", Khan and his followers probably constructed their own dwellings from wood, stone or other local materials. When the planet was devastated and most life seems to have been obliterated, they were forced to retreat into the three tiny cargo pods they had left.

No wonder Khan was pissed off.

[Timo]

We could invent all sorts of details of the lives of the castaways, based on these pictures. What is the big pit in front of the container row, for example? A former pond? A former charcoal pile site? Did something explode there when the supermen fought each other for the last remaining piece of bread?

And what were all the supermen doing outside when our heroes arrived? Visiting the local well? What else of importance is there on this planet? If dozens of humans and an entire species of ear-burying critters look like mere lichen on a starship's scanners, aren't the odds that something else of note survives as well, hidden by the sandstorm static and whatnot?

Timo Saloniemi

[Blip]

Tomalak wrote:

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No wonder Khan was pissed off.

[Dukhat]

Timo wrote:

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Is that a fifth (and thus presumably also sixth?) container buried at the extreme right, or just the detached grapple of container #4?

It looks like part of the grapple, but if there's another container attached to it I can't tell.

Unless we speculate that Kirk revisited Khan several years after "Space Seed", and donated him some brand new containers. This would explain away the "fifteen years" references.

Nope. Khan said that Ceti Alpha V exploded six months after they were left there, so it would still have been in TOS season 1 or the beginning of season 2.

[Timo]

Doesn't invalidate the idea of Kirk visiting him. He just didn't tell Chekov that Khan was now suffering, and probably soon dying, on a true hellhole of a planet.

Anyways, the 3100-range stardate of "Space Seed" might well indicate the third year of the five-year mission, thus something like 2268. Add 500 stardates for six months, assume the dates begin when the Desilu season does, and 3700 might well be past the 2269 mark. Fifteen years would get one just past the important ST2 milestone of 2283 on McCoy's bottle, then, without the need to play with rounding up or down...

I wonder... What technologies did Khan have access to? Apparently nothing he could build an interstellar communications device or a spacecraft out of. But did he have things like groundcars or aircraft, or was he denied even basic water purifiers?

What is this thing?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0193.jpg

Or this one?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0149.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

[Maurice]

Timo wrote:

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What is this thing?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0193.jpg

The mean the box with the lights on it? If so, that's an unused biobed readout from Phase II.

[Timo]

Interesting! Thanks for the info. We might just as well speculate it's a biobed readout or a field autodoc "for real" as well... Khan could probably use one, and that's the sort of equipment Kirk would feel compelled to donate.

The other contraption seems like it was torn out of the carcass of a dead fridge. Quite possibly this is how Khan gets his drinking water. Or some other beverage that benefits from distilling.

Timo Saloniemi

[MarsWeeps]

Timo wrote:

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Doesn't invalidate the idea of Kirk visiting him.

Well, Khan's own words do:

KHAN to Chekov : This is Ceti Alpha Five. ...Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. Admiral Kirk ...never bothered to check on our progress.

Khan makes it clear that Kirk never came back after dumping him on the planet.

[Maurice]

Timo wrote:

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Interesting! Thanks for the info. We might just as well speculate it's a biobed readout or a field autodoc "for real" as well... Khan could probably use one, and that's the sort of equipment Kirk would feel compelled to donate.

A digram of the faceplate of that medical device appears in the Phase II book

[MarsWeeps]

One thing that bothered me about this movie was the whole "surprise" of finding Khan there.

When the Reliant was dispatched to the Ceti Alpha system, why wouldn't Chekov think "Oh yeah, that's where we dumped Khan!"

Also, the great, mighty StarFleet was completely unaware that a planet in this system exploded? You would think somebody at some time would have noticed....at the very least, Reliant should have detected that the system no longer matched known charts, because...well...a planet exploded and shifted orbits of the others!

Khan remembering Chekov can easily be explained...Chekov appeared off screen as a minor crewman. Khan had access to the ship's records (another brilliant move by Kirk!) so he memorized everyone on board....

But...the whole "planet-exploding-in-the-system-where-Khan-was-left-and-nobody-noticing" is a bit hard to accept.

Not to mention, the wonderful scanners on the Reliant that missed Khan and the rest of the survivors...or having them show up as a minor "fluctuation on one dyno-scanner."

Carolyn Marcus wanted a planet that "was completely dead or the deal's off." Maybe next time send a ship with better scanners?

Oh...and now that I remember, once Chekov figured out where he was, why not call for an immediate beamout instead of going outside to be captured by Khan? Let me guess, the transporters couldn't penetrate the cargo bay!

[UssGlenn]

MarsWeeps wrote:

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Oh...and now that I remember, once Chekov figured out where he was, why not call for an immediate beamout instead of going outside to be captured by Khan? Let me guess, the transporters couldn't penetrate the cargo bay!

My best guess is that the interference from the storm required them to return to their beam in point for beam out. The transporter can lock onto them if it knows where they are, but it can't scan the area normally because of the storm.

[MarsWeeps]

UssGlenn wrote:

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My best guess is that the interference from the storm required them to return to their beam in point for beam out. The transporter can lock onto them if it knows where they are, but it can't scan the area normally because of the storm.

Which brings up another point, if they knew the scanners weren't reliable because of the storm, how can they be trusted to find a planet "completely lifeless?"

[Dukhat]

Timo wrote:

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Or this one?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0149.jpg

IIRC, that is actually a spaceship model from some other production that was used as set dressing.

[Timo]

Cool. I don't recognize it, but there might be experts here who have the movie or show down pat.

When the Reliant was dispatched to the Ceti Alpha system, why wouldn't Chekov think "Oh yeah, that's where we dumped Khan!"

Two equally likely explanations:

1) Because he wasn't told? If he wasn't the navigator on duty when Kirk ordered the ship to this place, he probably wouldn't have been given the memo. Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty marooned Khan in a secret location because they didn't want to give him over to authorities - they liked the guy too much. They wouldn't have squealed to Starfleet, and they wouldn't have told their crew the specs, either.

2) Because he forgot? Chekov must have visited hundreds of star systems, the rate he was going in TOS. If Kirk had made sure there was no official entry about the marooning in the records, then browsing through the databanks for "Ceti Alpha: The Highlights" would not ring any bells for Chekov.

Also, the great, mighty StarFleet was completely unaware that a planet in this system exploded?

That is more or less the basic premise of Star Trek.

In that show, the only way to find out in real time what is really happening in a distant star system is to go and have a look. Telescopes don't reveal anything much, not in real time: the numerous star systems devastated by the Doomsday Machine were only revealed to have been reduced to rubble when Kirk's ship sailed into that rubble, again and again and again, system after system.

And you don't go and have a look lightly. Deneva, a system inhabited by "almost a million" people and a former major freight port, went silent and remained silent for "over a year" before Starfleet paid attention.

Kirk would have made sure that he dropped Khan in a location that would be even less frequently visited!

Carolyn Marcus wanted a planet that "was completely dead or the deal's off." Maybe next time send a ship with better scanners?

We've seen fancy ores and heavy weather screw up sensor readings before; that's probably the state of the art for Starfleet.

Oh...and now that I remember, once Chekov figured out where he was, why not call for an immediate beamout instead of going outside to be captured by Khan?

Because Chekov was scared out of his wits.

Which brings up another point, if they knew the scanners weren't reliable because of the storm, how can they be trusted to find a planet "completely lifeless?"

Very good point. Marcus' specs for the planet seemed extremely specific in any case, otherwise the Reliant would not have spent such a long time looking. Not only would the planet have to be dead, it would apparently still have to be Class M (with breathable air, as seen).

Remember that the Marcuses wanted to solve problems of interstellar famine. Perhaps their main goal was to get crops growing on a dead and worthless planet - so their main concern would be finding a planet free of global plant life, and never mind isolated pockets of whatever. If Terrell could prove the desert world only had this one "Garden of Ceti Alpha", then the experiment could still proceed, despite lower levels of plant or animal life elsewhere.

The other possibility is that Marcus shied away from experimenting on a living planet for ethical reasons. The Genesis effect would still obviously work, and the experiment might even yield the desired scientific results, but some lichen would die and that would be a big boo-boo. But there could be limits to the practical application of high morals, and Marcus would be ready to give the go if the sensors showed nothing, regardless of whether there was invisible life down below.

Timo Saloniemi

[MarsWeeps]

Timo wrote:

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Two equally likely explanations:

1) Because he wasn't told? If he wasn't the navigator on duty when Kirk ordered the ship to this place, he probably wouldn't have been given the memo.

Except that he DID know. From the transcripts:

KHAN (to Terrell): ... Never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sand heap with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?
CHEKOV: You lie! On Ceti Alpha Five there was life, a fair chance.

So, by this statement, Chekov knew where Khan was marooned.

Timo wrote:

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2) Because he forgot? Chekov must have visited hundreds of star systems, the rate he was going in TOS. If Kirk had made sure there was no official entry about the marooning in the records, then browsing through the databanks for "Ceti Alpha: The Highlights" would not ring any bells for Chekov.

Why would Kirk make no record? It's possible that he didn't want StarFleet to know that he almost lost his ship because he stupidly allowed Khan access to the ship's technical data. But, how would he explain the loss of McGivers if he was trying to cover something up? Then there's the issue of not warning anyone of Khan, it would be too big of a risk not to report Khan and his whereabouts, otherwise something similar may happen to another ship.

Timo wrote:

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Very good point. Marcus' specs for the planet seemed extremely specific in any case, otherwise the Reliant would not have spent such a long time looking. Not only would the planet have to be dead, it would apparently still have to be Class M (with breathable air, as seen).

I don't think breathable air is necessarily a requirement. The Genesis device could program the matrix so that breathable air was included.

Timo wrote:

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Remember that the Marcuses wanted to solve problems of interstellar famine. Perhaps their main goal was to get crops growing on a dead and worthless planet - so their main concern would be finding a planet free of global plant life, and never mind isolated pockets of whatever. If Terrell could prove the desert world only had this one "Garden of Ceti Alpha", then the experiment could still proceed, despite lower levels of plant or animal life elsewhere.

Not according to Carolyn Marcus. Her own words: "You boys have to be clear on this. There can't be so much as a microbe or the show's off."