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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 23 2011, 02:22 PM   #106
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

7THSEALORD -



I would be ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED to not only show you the signs, but even produce supporting testimony from the Enterprise crew members,.. as well as from KIRK himself!


Ready?,


Great!,


Let's get started with the first witness!



Calling Dr. Leonard McCoy to the stand:



AT 00:55 McCOY: It's a shame to have to INTRUDE.


Hmmmm,... Intrude,... intrude,.. from the Websters Dictionary:



Intrude ./in 'trood/ verb 1) To put oneself deliberately into a place or situation where one in unwelcome or uninvited.



2) To Enter with disruptive or adverse effect


Keep this definition well in mind, as we will be returning to it, over, and over, and over again,.. you can bet your Kirk, on that!


and,..


just wait till we get to #2 LOL!!!



The two key concepts would be the a) the putting of oneself and b)deliberately .




Now, let's understand something, the concept of 'putting of oneself' means:


A) the RESPONSIBILITY for the act 'of the putting' belongs he who COMMITS THE ACT,... and 'Deliberately' means:


B) to commit the act (of the putting) with, or marked by, full consciousness of intent.


Hmmm,....


Well, that pretty much describes every single instance when KIRK gives the order to beam down to a planet:




1) Which is NOT an annex of the Federation, or has had no established liaison with the Federation.



2) Has NOT issued a specific invitation, OR dispatched a general plea for assistance.



3) Has NOT granted permission to do so, as a response to a query of solicitation.


4) Is NOT devoid of any sentient civilization, and/or active culture.




So, I am sure it comes as no surprise, that by definition: HE WHO COMMITS THIS ACT OF INTRUSION, KNOWINGLY, AND WITH FULL INTENT AND FORETHOUGHT WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACT OF INTRUSION, BE IDENTIFIED PROPERLY AS: AN INTRUDER




Pretty damning stuff so far wouldn't you say,... heh, heh, heh,... but wait!, we're just getting started!




Continuing with McCoy at 00:45: "Well,... I just might stake a claim and settle down here Jim"


Well, well, well,... so the self-admitted INTRUDER, says: "I like this place, so I'll take it for myself", or simply: "I want, I take."



Now, all together,.. can you say: "Imperial Expansionist"?


The good Doc can,.. and does!


The synthesis of the root McCoy speech is: We are Imperialistic Expansionist Intruders, therefore, we take what we like.


Yes gang, it's the ol' VENDI, VEDI, VECI treatment,... once again LOL!



Thank you Dr. McCoy,.. you may step down.





Now Calling Captain James T. Kirk to the stand:


AT 00:56 KIRK: "The last Scout-Ship reported some pretty strange sensor readings"


KIRK's FIRST SIGN that there previously existed, and has been well-established, potentially hazardous conditions.




So why would KIRK knowingly INTRUDE onto a planet which does not fit the criterion of conditions: 1,2,3,4.?


Let's have Captain Kirk tell us the reason behind the VIOLATION, shall we?


AT 00:59 KIRK: 'Star Fleet wants it investigated"



Ah HAH!,... So STAR FLEET - being the Para-Military/ Exploration/Colonization arm of the UFP, OF WHICH THIS PLANET DOES NOT SUBSCRIBE, NOR DOES IT INHABIT UFP CLAIMED SPACE - wants it investigated (read: Invaded and Evaluated for asset/risk potential - don't believe me? just wait!).


AT 1:00 KIRK,.. "It's inhabitants contacted"


That pretty much tells the tale that the UFP:SFC:KIRK are all fully aware of the following facts:


5) This non-UFP planet has a sentient population that the UFP is already aware of existing.



6) No previous contact (for communication pertaining to conditions 1,2,3,4) has been established between these two entities.


The synthesis of the root KIRK speech is: This planet in not a subscribing member, bound to, protected by, or operating under the foreign government of which I am an operating agent thereof; nor have we had any previous contact with the people and/or government of this planet, yet, the super-power government ordered me here, in direct defiance of its own statues, to invade.


Let's call 1st Officer Mr. Spock to the stand to give us his report on WHY the UFP might be interested in targeting this planet for potential benefit to the UFP, .. might there be something of VALUE the UFP might be interested in (remember: asset potential)



AT 1:04 SPOCK: 'The soil here is remarkably rich and fertile'.


Obviously this is NOT throw-away information, as KIRK goes so far as to ask for absolute certainty on Spock's soil report.


Really on some dirt???



Why be so concerned about some dirt when a deep-space scout-ship reported 'strange senor readings', I thought we were looking for dangerous conditions to warn the our new "friends" about,.. forget the fact we don't even know who THEY are,... what's all this bother over some dirt??



Synthesis root of the SPOCK speech: All together now: "Benefit / Potential Profit Analysis",.. Vendi, Vedi, Veci,..


but remember kids, you have to know what you are looking at to WANT IT, BEFORE YOU TAKE IT, and you wouldn't want the good Captain recommending this place to SFC, to then recommend it to the UFP for Conquering and Capitalization,.. I mean,.. uh, AID and ASSISTANCE,.. you know SF 'protection' :::wink, wink:::


Well,.... using the three principle Trek characters own testimony against them,... I COULD go on, and on, and on,.. exposing the REAL motive and operating philosophy behind the Federation mentality,...





But let's get back to all the SIGNS,.. remember the 1st one KIRK already noted,.. and ignored; he was busy worrying about the value of the planet!


AT 2:00 the first RED SHIRT bites the dust,.. so are we to believe that SF is going accept this death as just part of the cost of warning these people - they have never met- of a danger SCF is not even sure of???


Recalling our Second Definition of INTRUDER, I'd say DEATH is a pretty good indicator of an 'Adverse Effect', and most certainly 'Disruptive' to the life of Red-Shirt, and his family back home.




KIRK's SECOND SIGN: AT 3:57, MR. SCOTT REPORTS TO KIRK: The anti-matter pods are losing potency. And although SCOTT is not sure, he is suggesting it could tie into the electromagnetic field WHICH IS THE NATURAL & ESTABLISHED STATE FOR THIS PLANET, as originally reported by the deep-space Scout, and now confirmed by SCOTT.

KIRK's THIRD SIGN AT 4:43, KIRK STATES: 'Keep an eye on the anti-matter pods, if they get any worse, we'll beam up'.

Beam up?


Why would someone say, "Beam Up" if they had no awareness of any danger or risk to his ship (and the 430 lives on-board it)??


By his own testimony KIRK has just confirmed he is fully aware his intruding ship is in a potent danger situation.

oh wait,...

AT 5:15 KIRK: 'There may be OTHER DANGER HERE than poisonous plants.'

And again,.. By his own testimony, KIRK himself, confirms he knows they walked into danger on the planet, ignored the sign and they met danger (and death!),.. and they may be walking into MORE DANGER,... since KIRK is going to continue to ignore the signs,.. above and below.


Recall what we said about the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ACT BELONGING TO HE WHO DELIBERATELY COMMITS THE ACT WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF INTENT?


7) KIRK is acting with Intent


8) KIRK is fully aware.




AT 5:35 MR. SPOCK REPORTS: a humaniod is hiding behind a rock. Coupling this report to an earlier Spock report of the existence of a mechanical device under the ground and operating, would point to the planet not only being inhabited by a sentient race, but one with if not industry, but certainly a pre-existing culture already in place



AT 7:20: a MASSIVE EXPLOSION, just ignore it as a sign of anything, either above or below..Kirk is fully aware of both dangers,.. so we'll just ignore it too.



AT 7:33 SPOCK,.. in response to the potentially fatal explosion,.. once again with the Profit motive, check it out for yourself.



AT 8:00: KIRK's FOURTH SIGN: MR. SCOTT REPORTS: Anti-matter pods completely inert. SCOTT further confirms it is due to the Enterprise absorbing the proximity effect from the electromagnetic emanating from the planet surface,.. long ago detected to exist by the deep-space Scout, and established as part of the pre-exisiting environmental conditions of this planet.




AT 8:25 KIRK's FIFTH SIGN: Back at 4:43 KIRK had evaluated the danger to the Enterprise and stated that IF the situation with the anti-matter pods worsened, he would beam up,... well,.. the situation is now worse,.. and Kirk is NOT beaming back up.


All I can tell you is, when an emotionally involved Commander makes these types of 'reversals of rationale' in the field during a declining situation, its time to pull him out of the bush fast, or 'di di mau', because somebody is going to get zapped.



AT 9:00 KIRK's SIXTH SIGN: SPOCK takes a chest full of poison darts from the deadly plants. This is WHY sign #5 is so critical in a combat/hostile situation,..


KIRK (in good judgement) evaluated the possible need to abort the mission back at 4:44. then later at 8:25, after the situation worsened, and (in bad judgement) reversed himself,.. and now another man is down. Happens every time. This the TREK equivalent the same bad command decisions which lead to 10's of thousands of untimely deaths in the A Shau Valley and the Iron-Triangle.

AT 9:41: KIRK's SEVENTH WARNING SIGN: KIRK calls for a 'dust-off" for Mr. Spock, to beam Spock back to the ship.

9) Fist Kirk says they'll abort and evacuate IF the anti-matter pods situation worsens, it does, and he does not, a man dies.

10) Scott reports situation with anti-matter pods critical failure, Kirk still does not abort, Spock down.


11) Kirk orders Spock med-evaced back to Enterprise,.. Ship in Danger, Crew in Danger, Transporter fully operational,.. but NO!,..KIRK waited to long!,...

12) Kirk never stuck to his original assessment (back at SIGN #5) to get his people safe and put some distance between his ship and the radiation, if only to re-evaluate and re-coup.About now,KIRK;s command field rating would be "F'ing number 10".


AT 12:20 KIRK STATES - 'Not only is something after the ship, but something after us as well"


REALLY???,.. Something after you and your ship??? You INVADE a place, You ignore all signs, both external and internal, exposing yourself, your crew, and your entire ship to the hazards naturally pre-existing, You even ignore your own better judgement, and GET YOUR FINGER CAUGHT IN THE DOORBELL,... and you say:

'Something is after YOU",... yeah, that planet just sitting there being,... just sitting there as it has for 10,000 years BEFORE you followed orders to invade it, is soooo aggressive in its ATTACK on you and your big corporate Starship LOL!!!

I have to stop now, some evangelists are breaking down my front door, so I need to lock my dobermans in the basement, before one them claims his right to barge in here, disrupt my entire existence, and NOT become a chew-toy, as they tropm all over my home.


Seriously 7THSEASLORD, do you really need to see more?

and please, before someone 'comes back' with: "well,.. Kirk was just following orders",... as you well know, that weak-#ss nonsense didn't work for those OTHER NAZI's at Nuremberg or GITMO either.

The real Prime Directive: Vendi, Vedi, Veci

Oh, and 'HOME INVASION',.. well, let's see,... KIRK and Company are INVADING,.. and this planet would be someone else's HOME,.. so Yeppers,.. that sums it up quite nicely.
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Old November 23 2011, 02:31 PM   #107
7thsealord
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Cap'n T. First part of your not so-little diatribe is, very simply, Doctor McCoy being Doctor McCoy - and you taking his usual grumbling about Life, the Universe and Everything so grossly out of context as to be in the next universe over. Nothing more.

As for the rest, later perhaps. Gotta work tomorrow and it is durn late here. Bye, now.
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Old November 24 2011, 12:12 AM   #108
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

7THSEALORD - Well, if you are going to discount what the characters actually say, and what they actually do,... and decree standard definitions are 'out of context',... what unique method are you using to arrive at a different conclusion?

Well have a good one, we are gearing up for the holiday weekend here. I don't suppose you any sort of a feast in Aussie-Land during this same weekend, or do you?

'Diatribe' ? - to quote Commodore Stocker: 'Did you just call me fat'?!?

No, diatribe here,.... you asked for signs, WE GIVE YOU SIGNS LOL!
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Old November 24 2011, 01:19 AM   #109
7thsealord
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
7THSEALORD - Well, if you are going to discount what the characters actually say, and what they actually do,... and decree standard definitions are 'out of context',... what unique method are you using to arrive at a different conclusion?

Well have a good one, we are gearing up for the holiday weekend here. I don't suppose you any sort of a feast in Aussie-Land during this same weekend, or do you?

'Diatribe' ? - to quote Commodore Stocker: 'Did you just call me fat'?!?

No, diatribe here,.... you asked for signs, WE GIVE YOU SIGNS LOL!
Call 'em like I see 'em, Cap'n T. Y'all are way way WAY out of context. Take yer medicine like a man, dangit!

Though 'diatribe' was meant to be (mostly) tongue-in-cheek, and I do apologize for any distress or undue suffering this may have caused.

As for your holiday weekend .... Nope, nothing like that here. Courtesy of all the Yank TV shows seen here over the years, I am sure most Aussies are up on the basic concepts though.

Bad enough that a few folks here now observe Halloween.
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Old November 24 2011, 12:38 PM   #110
7thsealord
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Cap'n T. I will start with a quote of mine, usually attributed to Sigmund Freud.

"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."

Having looked at your above effort a bit more, this seems especially relevant.

Let's see ....

McCoy grumbles. Hooo, that is suspicious.

A Star Fleet vessel detects something unusual, inferred to be of an advanced technological nature, and SFC sends Enterprise to investigate further. Yeah, definite ulterior motives there.

Spock remarks on soil fertility, and both he and Kirk seem to find this especially noteworthy. Wow.
Then again, refer a previous post of mine - Maybe the soil is so fertile because of Vaal turning all those other ships and landing parties into landfill?

Something funny starts to happen to his ship (cause unknown), and Kirk considers beaming the landing party back up. Yeah, I can see how that would be strange.

Later, when the cause is suspected to be something on the planet surface, Kirk decides to investigate further rather than beaming up. Again, most strange.

And ....

......

I am very very sorry, Cap'n T. I have, or had, enjoyed most of our discussion on this thread. But this set of "facts" of yours is actually becoming mentally painful to read.

Wading through and rebutting it step by step is simply no fun at all for me. Instead, with abject apologies, I'm just going to opt out of this particular thread. Talk with you on one of the others, hopefully. Sorry.

Last edited by 7thsealord; November 24 2011 at 12:49 PM.
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Old November 24 2011, 03:20 PM   #111
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Capt. Tracy - can I call you Ron? - I sat back and let 7thsealord carry the argument - he (or she) made some good points, as did you. However, I think you overlook the fact that the "keepers of Vaal" may have been slaves - they may have wanted to break away, but Vaal kept them in line with punishment, as they stated. Proof? When Hutch (where was Starsky?) and the girl observe Chekov and the cute yeoman swapping some spit, they want to do it to. So its obvious they had the desire (no pun intended) to make personal choices as to how to live their lives, but were denied this basic freedom by a machine. In this senario, Kirk and company are emancipators, simply giving these people the basic right to make their own choices. The choices they then make are up to them. BTW, interesting little thesis on the name "Kirk".
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Old November 27 2011, 01:53 PM   #112
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Emancipators huh? Well,.. one could see it that way. In fact a good portion of the World would saw it that way, as did a good portion of the World saw them the other way,... just as it was regarding Vietnam,... which this story is an allegory.

People often cite the fact that TREK blew the entire greenery budget on this episode,.. and why?

In an attempt to capture the lush triple canopy jungle feel of Vietnam, without creating an actual Vietnam-obvious jungle set.

So, the 'issue' which this episode addresses actually divided our entire country, and still does.

When one REALLY digs into what some of these writers were actually trying to say - hidden behind an adventure story - TREK stories, for the most part, take on a different dimension,... as in the game we have been playing here together with 7THSEALORD.

Okay SISKO,.. I am ready for my 'what would you have done in Captain Kirks position during the ____ episode' question,...

FIRE AWAY!
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Old December 2 2011, 04:09 PM   #113
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^The Viet Nam allegory is interesting. I never looked at the episode that way - I thought "A Private Little War" was Trek's statement on that. But I can see it - Vaal as communism, "enslaving" those that want to be "free". Looked at from that view, then Kirk and company are imperialist jackasses just like we were. But from a pure sci fi story angle, I still think they can be viewed as freeing these people from the slavery of a machine, and an apparently unwanted servitude. I would still do what Kirk did.
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Old December 2 2011, 08:05 PM   #114
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Where ya been buddy?

Yes, actually quite a few TREK episodes make the Vietnam statement as the underline theme; but The Apple, is the most in your face; once you look at it that way. Watch it again, and try to see it as the Central Highlands and an Army patrol,...

Okay, well, I am still waiting for my 'what would you have done in Kirk's position in such-and-such episode',question.

LOL! If you dont give me one, I have another question from a different episode for you! LOL!
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Old December 7 2011, 03:58 PM   #115
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^OK, Ron, how's this - where do you stand on Kirk's stranding of Khan and company? Forward thinking, or was Kirk acting as judge, jury, and maybe executioner?
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Old December 7 2011, 08:20 PM   #116
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - GREAT question,.. and I have may basic answer formed, HOWEVER, i want to take a day to re-watch the episode so I can give a completely supported answer, so you know where i am coming from.
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Old December 9 2011, 10:09 PM   #117
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Okay, sorry for the delay. Here is my answer:

I DO NOT give Kahn a court-martial or place him on the planet.

After the fist fight, I would have kept Kahn in a detention cell and simply delivered him to Star Base, as per the original intent, let their Judicial department deal with him.
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Old December 13 2011, 04:25 PM   #118
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^So you would give no consideration to the fact that Kahn and his followers are people out of their time, and that custody is akin to a death sentence for him and his people, as genetically altered humans? Remember, they did not chose to be genetic superhumans - they were engineered, and so follow their engineered psychology, where ever it may lead. What say you?
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Old December 14 2011, 02:28 AM   #119
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Hey There SISKO - I hear what you are saying, however, I stick to my course of action based on the following reasons:

1. Star Fleet Command is fully provisioned to deal with the situation of KAHN and his people. As I am not cut off from communications with SFC in this situation it is not within my authority to usurp the jurisdiction of SFC, and thereby act as a judge, jury, and/or executioner. To put it simply, in this case - being in communication to higher authority - deciding KAHN's fate is therefore not my job; only his delivery.

2. Added whatever past issues need to be addressed, KAHN now gets to add the very current charges of commandeering a Federation vessel, and in doing so, endangering the lives of all hands on board.

3. The concern that turning KAHN into the authorities will mean an automatic 'Death Sentence' is pure speculation and opinion. One would think that SFC has the wisdom to deal with his special situation and history; and again, as a Starship Captain, it is not my job to speculate if I personally feel SFC will have that wisdom - wisdom also being defined by my personal opinion.

4. The fact that KAHN is a genetically altered being through no fault of his own, is no more my concern regarding the discharge of my duties, any more than if he was human, Vulcan, Andorian, or what have you; as no one gets to decide their own creation - and again it is a moot point in relation to the execution of the orders I have sworn to uphold.

So,.. that about sums up my rational as to why I DO NOT give KAHN a court-martial, or place him on the planet.
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Old December 14 2011, 05:34 AM   #120
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Why is it that those who decry opponents of communism as imperialist jackassess, always tend to be citizens of those imperialist jackass-led countries and never people who have had to live under the unjust and oppressive communist regimes which they seem to want to defend.

Kirk did the right thing in The Apple. If they really wanted to keep Vaal, I think they would have been far more vocal about it at the end of the episode instead of looking all hot and horny about the prospect of finally getting it on with each other.

Freedom Rocks! Kirk Rocks!
Federation....f@#* yeah!
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