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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 23 2011, 02:06 PM   #331
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
It's interesting that you mention the Vulcan trilogy of ENT, because I think season four of Enterprise also achieved that level of comfort with its setting, and was by far the show's strongest because of it. A shame it took them so long to get there.
To be fair, many of the Trek series didn't hit their stride until a few seasons had passed. TNG certainly didn't until it's third season. I would say, despite having some very good earlier episodes, DS9 doesn't hit it's full stride until it's third season as well. And VOY, like ENT, didn't come into it's own until it's fourth season.
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Old November 23 2011, 02:41 PM   #332
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'd argue that VOY never really came into its own, but that's an entirely different thread.
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Old November 23 2011, 06:56 PM   #333
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think I started that thread.


The Circle (****)

In some ways, this episode is better than the previous one, and in some ways it's not as good. It maintains the breakneck pace of the previous episode (Kira is kidnapped, 5 minutes later she's rescued), but in this case it's not such a big deal because it focuses on fewer areas of the plot than The Homecoming and it doesn't struggle to introduce elements as the plot is already in motion. There's only one major new character, that Bajoran general guy, everyone else is either returning from the previous episode or ITHOTP. It's also necessary that this episode moves swiftly because it's the story of a coup and those have to happen quickly so that nobody will notice. So while this episode is probably more hurried than the previous one, that's a good thing and you don't feel like the story missed any beats.

But that's partly because some of those beats were removed from the piece. This episode goes from 4-4 time to 3-4 time. (I assure you that the musicians reading this are laughing their asses off.) Li Nalas was the driving force of the previous episode, but in this episode he's just sort of there, not knowing what he's supposed to do. He's a strong character, a man that's willing to sacrifice much for his homeland, but when his home is falling into civil war it's Sisko that takes the lead. The legends about this man's leadership abilities really are exaggerated.

But what this episode does well is make the Trek universe feel more real by, paradoxically, expanding it by using pre-existing elements. The episode didn't need Bareil and Winn, Bareil could have been a random new character, and the episode already had a villain so it didn't need Winn as an additional one. But by bringing these key players back we not only get more of a feel for Bajor, we also get some more insight into Jaro and what he represents. We also didn't need the involvement of the Cardassians in the coup, it could have been a revolt internal to Bajor, but adding that raises the stakes for the show and reveals the Cardassians to be an insidious, effective villain species. They haven't gone away, you know.

Also, this episode has the best line of the series so far:
QUARK: We've got to leave! Well, I do anyway, you can just turn into a couch.
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Old November 23 2011, 06:59 PM   #334
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It also has one of the best deliveries of a line; when Winn tells Kira that she can stay as many days as she wishes, "even a week if you like!"
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Old November 23 2011, 10:56 PM   #335
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I know...the unctuous delivery of that line was quite something.

Random observation: when reading the Harry Potter books, I found myself wondering if Dolores Umbridge was based on Kai Winn! (Of course, I know it's just the same archetype--no more, no less. )
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Old November 23 2011, 11:13 PM   #336
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
It also has one of the best deliveries of a line; when Winn tells Kira that she can stay as many days as she wishes, "even a week if you like!"
Oh my god I love that line. Winn is such a bitch! Definitely a love-to-hate character.

Kira being captured an rescued just as quikly gave me whiplash, and Li Nalas isn't as much of a presence as he was in The Homecoming. I think because of these points, The Circle isn't quite as strong as what came before.

Despite this though, the episode does very well maintaining its pace and continuing the strong start to the season. I loved seeing Bareil again in particular! (Used to have a big crush on him when younger, which just seems embarrassing these days.)
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Old November 24 2011, 05:10 AM   #337
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

A couple of other good things about this episode are 1.) that the one major new character - General Krim - is only introduced here so that he doesn't come out of left field when he has to be one of the driving forces in the third episode. Well done, IMO, to lay his groundwork beforehand, if only slightly. 2.) The line about Sisko meeting Krim at a session of the Bajoran Executive Committee. There's no reason for that line to be there, but it adds to the texture and nuance of the situation. It shows that Sisko isn't just running the station, but that he has, in fact, been operating in close contact with the Provisional Government at a fairly high level.

It's a shame that many of these interactions are only hinted at (most noticeably when Sisko goes before the Chamber of Ministers and tells them, as the Emissary and the commander of DS9, to sign the non-aggression pact with the Dominion) (I would have LOVED to see that speech!), but it's nice that they're giving us these tidbits to show that the situation is more complex than what it may appear.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Random observation: when reading the Harry Potter books, I found myself wondering if Dolores Umbridge was based on Kai Winn!
Ah, same archetype, but Umbridge didn't thrist for ultimate power like Winn did - she was content to do whatever her superiors told her to do. I also don't remember Winn being so fixated on cats or the color pink.
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Old November 24 2011, 09:02 AM   #338
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Random observation: when reading the Harry Potter books, I found myself wondering if Dolores Umbridge was based on Kai Winn!
Ah, same archetype, but Umbridge didn't thrist for ultimate power like Winn did - she was content to do whatever her superiors told her to do. I also don't remember Winn being so fixated on cats or the color pink.
Or cutting messages into other people's skin! Nah Umbridge was a Ministry of Magic lackey and sucked up to Cornelius Fudge big time (perhaps literally). But Winn is definitely more strangle-able (if that's a word), simply because she pretends to be good, but she is totally rotten inside.

Whereas Umbridge was always a hag and was never two-faced. Winn however was a far more complex character, and with virtually every line of dialogue she uttered, I feel like throttling her to death! She is so... patronising, condescending, belittling, devious... (but that's why she is such an amazing character)
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Old November 24 2011, 01:39 PM   #339
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Things, that are missing in this thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...0&postcount=15
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Old November 24 2011, 02:46 PM   #340
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine



In fact I think Quantum Leap finished in May 93, which is after DS9's first season. Surely he's free to make a special horseriding cameo? Although perhaps we should knock a star off TheGodBen if he uses jokes from previous reviews?

I already mentioned it my reply, but, for emphasis, Kai Winn was a brilliant enemy. I just thought I'd throw out the stray thought I had that I can understand why the writers would want to team up her and Dukat in the final arc. I mean we know how it all ended quite poorly, but I can see their thought process. Or at least I can if we pretend that I'm a professional writer for a minute.

I could pass as a professional TV watcher, perhaps.
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Old November 24 2011, 03:48 PM   #341
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Check out what's behind the second spoiler code of Post #19.

And, FWIW, I didn't think it's ended poorly at all with Winn teamed up with Dukat.
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Old November 24 2011, 08:59 PM   #342
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
In fact I think Quantum Leap finished in May 93, which is after DS9's first season. Surely he's free to make a special horseriding cameo? Although perhaps we should knock a star off TheGodBen if he uses jokes from previous reviews?
Yeah, I think it's time to move on from the Scott Bakula stuff, stretching it beyond Enterprise and into the B5 thread was probably a bit too silly. There shall be no more jokes about characters or actors from Quantum Leap in this thread.


The Siege (***½)

The episode is a step down from the previous two episodes, but not by as much as I remembered. Sadly, it doesn't move at the same breakneck pace as the previous two, because the station-based plot is essentially about stalling for time while Kira and Jadzia do their thing. The political intrigue that enriched the previous two episodes is also mostly removed, the decisions have already been made, this episode is just about waiting for the pieces to reach their destination.

The opening scene is good, but it's a little schmaltzy what with all the Starfleet officers volunteering to stay behind. I prefer "The Line" scene in the BSG finale as the majority Galactica's crew chose not to go on Adama's suicide mission, and if Adama can't convince all the people then Sisko doesn't have a hope. Don't get me wrong, I love Sisko and would be willing to sacrifice a lot for him, but I would kill my first-born child if Adama asked me to. What a guy. Anyway, the strongest part of the episode is the opening act as we witness the evacuation of the station, these scenes have a certain chaotic energy to them that once again makes this show feel larger than any of the others in the franchise. They're also an interesting parallel to the much more celebrated evacuation later in the series. It's also a nice touch how Sisko left his baseball behind on his desk, beginning its thematic importance that returns many times later in the series.

The rest of the episode is good, although rarely great. Kira and Jadzia find an old ship and try to get to Bajor, while Sisko and co hide out in the maintenance tubes. I did find it interesting that Sisko, Li, and O'Brien, the three experienced combat veterans, are all in the same group while Bashir, the inexperienced Doctor, is given a team on his own while also given the task of babysitting Quark. It's almost as if Sisko makes command decisions based on who annoys him and how far away he can put them. There's some shooting, some hostage-taking, and some ship-to-ship combat, but Kira finally reaches the Chamber of Ministers and hands over a data-pad that shows there's a 98.7% chance that the Cardassians are behind the coup.



The ending is the weakest part of the episode, and trilogy. Firstly, Li Nalas dies a pointless death because the writers thought they were done with him. It would have been more interesting to keep him alive and use him as a recurring character, maybe even taking over the role Shakaar played later in the series. The larger issue is that the underlying problems that led to the coup aren't resolved. The Provisional Government are still weak and ineffective, there's still a fear of Federation interference held by many Bajorans, but these get brushed under the rug so we can have a tidy ending. While the threat of a Cardassian return probably gave some Bajorans pause for thought, the problems that motivated Li's rescue still exist and need to be addressed, which makes killing him off all the more ludicrous.

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Old November 24 2011, 11:39 PM   #343
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Oh I didn't mean anything by my comment about the Bakula jokes. Feel free to ignore me and throw him in, it's your thread! (Unless you didn't take offense, and you're stopping it because you actually want to. Which would make more sense really. )

And what the hell is Kira holding in that pic? I laughed even though I don't know what it is. It sort of looks like a golden revolver with flowers coming out of it. I should find my glasses.

I agree that this episode is where the plot was losing its steam. I did enjoy seeing the characters preparing themselves for the onslaught, since there were some good conversations going on. I also enjoyed Dax and Kira getting the old Bajoran ship working, as it was pretty funny seeing Dax's reactions to the cranky old thing. (And that's the ship, not Kira.)

Unfortunately, Li Nalas' death means that there is no hero to ultimately unite Bajor. It's a shame that, particularly in The Homecoming, his character had a lot of potential. I think the writers were later trying the hero thing with Bareil, but ultimately went with what would provide more story opportunites with making Winn the new Kai, and he too fell by the wayside. And of course Shakaar came along, and went away again. Poor Bajor needed uniting and then it just sort of fell away into the background.
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Old November 24 2011, 11:53 PM   #344
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Seven of Five wrote: View Post
And what the hell is Kira holding in that pic? I laughed even though I don't know what it is. It sort of looks like a golden revolver with flowers coming out of it. I should find my glasses.
It's ziggy. I never said anything about not using Quantum Leap props. Sadly, the images for ziggy that I found on Google Images weren't that good, most of them were fake replicas.
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Old November 25 2011, 12:00 AM   #345
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ok everything is much funnier now.

I should have got that really, though I haven't seen Quantum Leap for a few years now.
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