RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,178
Posts: 5,435,691
Members: 24,946
Currently online: 639
Newest member: JDobbs

TrekToday headlines

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 20 2011, 04:42 AM   #211
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

sojourner wrote: View Post
But there have been more vampire series than that in the last few years. Moonlight and Being Human (and you can almost count this twice) among others.
But how does that stack up against, say, shows about time-travelers, or people with super-powers, or space operas or whatever? Or cops or lawyers for that matter.

Granted, I'm grew up watching Dark Shadows after school everyday, so it just seems natural to have vampires and werewolves on tv again . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 04:44 AM   #212
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Vampire shows have been a steady fixture on TV for decades, going back through Buffy/Angel and Forever Knight at least.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 04:49 AM   #213
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Christopher wrote: View Post
Vampire shows have been a steady fixture on TV for decades, going back through Buffy/Angel and Forever Knight at least.
Exactly. It's not like this is some pernicious new trend. It's just a tv staple, like space operas, spy shows, or courtroom dramas.

Zombies, on the other hand, have never appeared regularly in prime-time before. The idea of a doing a weekly tv series about a zombie apocalypse is actually a pretty radical and original notion . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 10:43 AM   #214
RJDementia13
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDementia13's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Christopher wrote: View Post
It's fascinating to me that so many Hulk fans these days are fans of the TV show as well as the comics, given that the show was as far from the comics as its creator could possibly make it. It really gives the lie to the assumption of modern fans that any adaptation that isn't slavishly accurate can't be any good. The Incredible Hulk proved that you can change everything except the most basic defining elements -- even the character's name -- and still produce something good and worthwhile. (At least, if what you put in their place is good in its own right. No denying that there are plenty of unfaithful adaptations that failed.)
Of course it can be good. It just gets to the point where you have to wonder why they recycle any bits of the original at all; they could just as easily have the show a re-imagining of Jekyll and Hyde, or made it something original.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards! And check out my Heroes essays.
RJDementia13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 02:36 PM   #215
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Of course it can be good. It just gets to the point where you have to wonder why they recycle any bits of the original at all; they could just as easily have the show a re-imagining of Jekyll and Hyde, or made it something original.
Why did Picasso use live models if his art was so profoundly unlike what live human beings look like? Because every artist needs a starting point, a reference to build from. Art is a process of interpretation. It's not about pulling stuff out of thin air, it's about responding to what came before, building something new on an existing foundation.

Authors and playwrights have always based their works on previous works. The previous work is the inspiration even if the resulting work is transformed into something extremely different. That's just the way creativity happens. Shakespeare's Macbeth bears little resemblance to the history it's based on (the historic Macbeth was a far more benevolent figure, but England's king at the time was descended from Macbeth's enemies so Shakespeare had to make him a villain), but it still grew out of the history. Pretty much all creative works are a response to or outgrowth of earlier creations, sometimes more directly than others.

Or there could be less highfalutin explanations, like maybe the network/studio already bought the idea from Marvel and then happened to assign it to a producer who didn't like the comics and tried to get as far away from them as possible. But that's still a form of creative response to a prior work.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 04:29 PM   #216
xortex
Commodore
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

T.v' s new approach is to give people everything they don't want and see what happens and how far they can push it, er, shove it down our throats. Unfortunately there aint no substitute for things like oxygen and food and water. Is there? Real life is a crutch for people who can't do science fiction right.
xortex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 09:59 PM   #217
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

they could just as easily have the show a re-imagining of Jekyll and Hyde,
ABC's got two of those under development.

I'm still waiting for someone to make a vampire show that really interests me. The last time that happened, it was Dark Shadows and I'm pretty sure my tastes have changed radically since then.

The really overdone tropes are: superheroes; sci fi/fantasy cops; and the Touched by an Angel/Medium type show.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20 2011, 10:33 PM   #218
RJDementia13
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDementia13's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Christopher wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Of course it can be good. It just gets to the point where you have to wonder why they recycle any bits of the original at all; they could just as easily have the show a re-imagining of Jekyll and Hyde, or made it something original.
Why did Picasso use live models if his art was so profoundly unlike what live human beings look like? Because every artist needs a starting point, a reference to build from. Art is a process of interpretation. It's not about pulling stuff out of thin air, it's about responding to what came before, building something new on an existing foundation.

Authors and playwrights have always based their works on previous works. The previous work is the inspiration even if the resulting work is transformed into something extremely different. That's just the way creativity happens. Shakespeare's Macbeth bears little resemblance to the history it's based on (the historic Macbeth was a far more benevolent figure, but England's king at the time was descended from Macbeth's enemies so Shakespeare had to make him a villain), but it still grew out of the history. Pretty much all creative works are a response to or outgrowth of earlier creations, sometimes more directly than others.

Or there could be less highfalutin explanations, like maybe the network/studio already bought the idea from Marvel and then happened to assign it to a producer who didn't like the comics and tried to get as far away from them as possible. But that's still a form of creative response to a prior work.
I think the less high-falutin' explanation is more likely. As you say, writers throughout the ages have been inspired (both positively and negatively) by other or prior writers; most of them have used that inspiration to create something original. Forbidden Planet was inspired by The Tempest, but it was neither slavishly derivative nor did it recycle names and terminology. If it did, it would have been weaker; as it is, it stands as a classic in its own right. If the producers of the original Hulk TV show wanted to combine the theme of the inner demon with The Fugitive, they should have created something original. But the real answer is that they took what was felt to be a marketable commodity and they mainstreamed it to reach a wider audience.

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
they could just as easily have the show a re-imagining of Jekyll and Hyde,
ABC's got two of those under development.
And the Hulk character is a re-imagining of the Jekyll and Hyde concept, but done in an original way.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards! And check out my Heroes essays.
RJDementia13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 12:39 AM   #219
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
As you say, writers throughout the ages have been inspired (both positively and negatively) by other or prior writers; most of them have used that inspiration to create something original.
Actually, no. That's completely wrong. Throughout most of recorded human history, the normative pattern was to retell pre-existing stories, whether classic myths or legends, historical events, or the like. Keep in mind that the vast majority of human history took place before the printing press, before literacy was widespread, before it was easy to propagate a single version of a story. For most of the time our species has existed, the only way to keep a story alive was to retell it, and it's the nature of oral history and lore in any culture that it changes with the retelling, adapted to suit the tastes and inclinations of its teller and audience. Look at all the classical Greek and Roman plays that are based on mythology, or all the various different, evolving versions of Arthurian legend from Geoffrey of Monmouth to de Troyes to Malory to Tennyson to White. Retelling and reinventing old stories is the way humans have done things for most of the history of creativity.

The cultural practice of creating mostly new stories rather than retelling old ones is a fairly recent innovation in our society. There's a reason why novels are called novels, meaning "new" -- because at the time they started to come out, it was a distinctive thing for stories to be new rather than retold. It wasn't something people were used to seeing.



Forbidden Planet was inspired by The Tempest, but it was neither slavishly derivative nor did it recycle names and terminology.
And Malory's Arthur is not "slavishly derivative" of de Troyes' (or whatever his other sources were), and indeed it reinterprets the lore considerably and adds a lot of new elements to it, but it definitely recycles names and plot points, just like every other iteration of Arthurian legend or every Greek play or most of Shakespeare's canon. For that matter, The Tempest itself, while just about the only thing in Shakespeare's canon that doesn't have a single clear source it's adapted from, definitely draws from a variety of other sources, such as the traditions of commedia del'arte, the writings of Montaigne and Strachey, and the like. One of Prospero's speeches is cribbed almost verbatim from a passage of Ovid's Metamorphoses. They didn't have copyright laws back then.

It's a straw man to say that the only two options are total originality and "slavish" imitation. That's so obviously false that I shouldn't even need to call you on it. Many works of fiction, including the one we're talking about, combine adapted elements with original elements.


If the producers of the original Hulk TV show wanted to combine the theme of the inner demon with The Fugitive, they should have created something original.
They did, by any legitimate and reasonable definition of "original." Anyone who knows jack about creativity knows that originality is in what you do with the ideas, not where you get them from.

And I categorically and emphatically reject any argument based on what creators "should" be prohibited from doing. That way lies censorship. It's a hideous notion. Creators need to have the freedom to try whatever they feel is appropriate. There's no guarantee it'll work, but who the hell are you to seek to impose limits on what they're able to try?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 01:27 AM   #220
Whofan
Fleet Captain
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

The Hulk concept actually is a bit flexible, since unlike a lot of other Marvel heroes the character has had multiple incarnations apart from being just the Savage and Bruce Banner...perhaps Del Toro's series will reflect this in some way.
Whofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 01:56 AM   #221
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Right. Even the canonical Hulk has been interpreted many different ways by different creators. It's already a series of distinct creations that derive from and reinterpret their predecessors, no matter how much it pretends to be a continuous story. So it's silly to say there's anything wrong with finding different ways of exploring the concept and characters in adaptations.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 02:07 AM   #222
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Besides Mr. Hyde, the Hulk was also inspired by Frankenstein's monster.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 10:45 AM   #223
RJDementia13
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDementia13's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

^^ That's true as well. My favorite era was when Hulk was misunderstood and childlike.

Christopher wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
As you say, writers throughout the ages have been inspired (both positively and negatively) by other or prior writers; most of them have used that inspiration to create something original.
Actually, no. That's completely wrong. Throughout most of recorded human history, the normative pattern was to retell pre-existing stories, whether classic myths or legends, historical events, or the like. Keep in mind that the vast majority of human history took place before the printing press, before literacy was widespread, before it was easy to propagate a single version of a story. For most of the time our species has existed, the only way to keep a story alive was to retell it, and it's the nature of oral history and lore in any culture that it changes with the retelling, adapted to suit the tastes and inclinations of its teller and audience. Look at all the classical Greek and Roman plays that are based on mythology, or all the various different, evolving versions of Arthurian legend from Geoffrey of Monmouth to de Troyes to Malory to Tennyson to White. Retelling and reinventing old stories is the way humans have done things for most of the history of creativity.

The cultural practice of creating mostly new stories rather than retelling old ones is a fairly recent innovation in our society. There's a reason why novels are called novels, meaning "new" -- because at the time they started to come out, it was a distinctive thing for stories to be new rather than retold. It wasn't something people were used to seeing.
Maybe so. I might research that later. But this is the modern era-- I'd rather see something original.

Forbidden Planet was inspired by The Tempest, but it was neither slavishly derivative nor did it recycle names and terminology.
And Malory's Arthur is not "slavishly derivative" of de Troyes' (or whatever his other sources were), and indeed it reinterprets the lore considerably and adds a lot of new elements to it, but it definitely recycles names and plot points, just like every other iteration of Arthurian legend or every Greek play or most of Shakespeare's canon. For that matter, The Tempest itself, while just about the only thing in Shakespeare's canon that doesn't have a single clear source it's adapted from, definitely draws from a variety of other sources, such as the traditions of commedia del'arte, the writings of Montaigne and Strachey, and the like. One of Prospero's speeches is cribbed almost verbatim from a passage of Ovid's Metamorphoses. They didn't have copyright laws back then.

It's a straw man to say that the only two options are total originality and "slavish" imitation. That's so obviously false that I shouldn't even need to call you on it. Many works of fiction, including the one we're talking about, combine adapted elements with original elements.
It may be a straw man, but since I never said it, it doesn't matter.

If the producers of the original Hulk TV show wanted to combine the theme of the inner demon with The Fugitive, they should have created something original.
They did, by any legitimate and reasonable definition of "original." Anyone who knows jack about creativity knows that originality is in what you do with the ideas, not where you get them from.

And I categorically and emphatically reject any argument based on what creators "should" be prohibited from doing. That way lies censorship. It's a hideous notion. Creators need to have the freedom to try whatever they feel is appropriate. There's no guarantee it'll work, but who the hell are you to seek to impose limits on what they're able to try?
And now you're totally off the rails. I never said anything about censorship. You live in a strange world if you think advocating creativity means advocating censorship.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards! And check out my Heroes essays.
RJDementia13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 03:10 PM   #224
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

^Saying that creativity "should" only be approached in a certain way is advocating censorship, or at least it's the first step in that direction and should be guarded against carefully.

Your problem is that you're defining originality in a very narrow and illegitimate way, as being solely about making up new character names or settings or whatever. That's complete rubbish. Like I said, originality is in what you do with the ideas, not where they come from. There are countless examples of creators taking pre-existing characters and plots and doing wildly original things with them, and there are sadly even more examples of creators inventing new characters and situations and doing painfully unoriginal and cliched things with them.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 10:12 PM   #225
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Rare genre comedy sighting.

Ghost Ghirls (SyFy) - executive produced by Jack Black, Ghost Ghirls is a comedic take on popular paranormal procedurals like Medium and Ghost Whisperer about two women - Heidi, who has self-proclaimed psychic abilities, and Angelica, who is a tech wiz - who attempt to solve paranormal mysteries each week while trying to prove to themselves and their customers that they are competent ghost hunters.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.