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Old November 17 2011, 05:31 PM   #181
Sindatur
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

1 Hour Drama for the Munsters? That's going to be a tough one, can't imagine it working, so I'm curious exactly how they'll approach it.
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Old November 17 2011, 08:39 PM   #182
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

^Well, the term "drama" in TV-speak seems to be used these days for any hourlong single-camera scripted production, even if it's essentially a comedy. The three previous shows on which Bryan Fuller has a creator credit -- Dead Like Me, Wonderfalls, and Pushing Daisies -- were primarily comedies with some dramatic elements.
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Old November 17 2011, 09:08 PM   #183
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

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Kegg wrote: View Post
True, but that didn't necessitate the Queen, so no, zombie-type villains do not need to be given a 'face' to continue to work in stories.
It's dangerous to take any analogy too literally, and that applies to this whole "zombie" business here.
Not really. As you said before:

Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem with the Borg was that, as originally conceived, they were just an impersonal force of nature, and since story is fundamentally driven by character, you can't tell many stories about something impersonal.
This statement can be applied equally to zombies as it can Borg, and the fact the statement does not work when applied to zombies undermines the premise. Clearly, one can tell many stories about something impersonal. If there is a reason one cannot tell many stories about impersonal Borg, then the question becomes what that is, because the lack of personhood for the antagonists themselves is not the whole of it.
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Old November 17 2011, 09:36 PM   #184
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Clearly, one can tell many stories about something impersonal.
As long as there are characters that the impersonal force of nature threatens, sure. But the impersonal force of nature can't be the main character of the story.
All those reboots and remakes don't just exist because creators don't WANT to come up with original ideas, but because that's pretty much all the studios and networks are willing to finance.
That's a common trope, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. My monster list includes a whole lot of premises that aren't remakes of anything in particular. They aren't necessarily very original, but that's another issue.

As for The Munsters, I bet it turns out to be a "dramedy" in the same vein as Pushing Daisies, but with more of a bite. (And the one thing I think could have saved Pushing Daisies is to have more of a bite to offset the remorseless sweetness.)
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Old November 17 2011, 10:23 PM   #185
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Kegg wrote: View Post
Not really. As you said before:

Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem with the Borg was that, as originally conceived, they were just an impersonal force of nature, and since story is fundamentally driven by character, you can't tell many stories about something impersonal.
This statement can be applied equally to zombies as it can Borg, and the fact the statement does not work when applied to zombies undermines the premise.
I've already explained this. I hate having to repeat myself. Zombies are more personal, in the sense I'm using the word, than original concept of the Borg, because they target people, because they're a direct personal threat to the characters. Also because they can be the corpses of people who matter to the characters. Both of which are things that were added to the Borg when they were changed to make them more personal. The original conception of the Borg in "Q Who" was that they had no interest in assimilating people, only technology, and that they were vat-grown and thus couldn't be anyone the viewers or characters might care about.
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Old November 17 2011, 10:36 PM   #186
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Post deleted following deletion of post being responded to.
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Old November 17 2011, 10:37 PM   #187
Temis the Vorta
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Yeah I already deleted it. Way ahead of you.

But I don't see the point of debating the original concept of the Borg, since if they had been stuck at that level, they really wouldn't have had the dramatic oomph to become iconic characters. The zombification aspect is what made them noteworthy to begin with.
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Old November 17 2011, 11:31 PM   #188
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Two more sightings, for what they're worth...

Afterthought (NBC) - about an unconventional team within the FBI that uses the six-hour window between clinical death and cellular death to solve murders by entering the memories of the recently deceased.

Spirited (ABC) - tells the story of Suzy Darling, a recently divorced mother of two whose life is forever changed through her unexpected relationship with Henry Mallet, the ghost of an ‘80s English punk rock star.

At this point, can we slam on the brakes of all series that involve ghosts?
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Old November 17 2011, 11:41 PM   #189
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Christopher wrote: View Post
I've already explained this. I hate having to repeat myself. Zombies are more personal, in the sense I'm using the word, than original concept of the Borg, because they target people, because they're a direct personal threat to the characters.
in "Q Who?" the Borg do actually cut through the Enterprise and kill a chunk of crewmen. The Borg also are stated to have more or less genocided Guinan's people in the same episode. A Borg civilization which desires your technology and will take it and also wipe our your race in the process is something you can tell more than one story about.

And in the sense of being a faceless menace that cannot be negotiated with and will kill you, the Borg resemble zombies enough for the purpose of the analogy.
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Old November 18 2011, 01:01 AM   #190
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

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in "Q Who?" the Borg do actually cut through the Enterprise and kill a chunk of crewmen.
No, they cut into the Enterprise and take a core sample of the ship. The fact that there are people in that core sample is of no concern to them. They're doing it to study the technology.

(At least, that's the evident intent in "Q Who." In more recent novels from Pocket Books, taking the later retcons about the Borg into account, it was established that the 18 Enterprise crew members in that section of the ship were assimilated. One of them is a character in my TNG novel Greater Than the Sum.)


The Borg also are stated to have more or less genocided Guinan's people in the same episode.
No, because genocide implies the conscious intent to destroy a race. The Borg assimilated the technology of Guinan's world; the people just happened to be in the way. That's the "Q Who" version of the Borg -- they pose a threat to living beings only through disinterest in their existence. They leave you alone as long as you don't get in their way, and if you are in their way, they'll steamroll right over you without even noticing.


A Borg civilization which desires your technology and will take it and also wipe our your race in the process is something you can tell more than one story about.
Sure, and you can tell more than one story about getting hit by a hurricane or a tsunami, but it would get repetitive after a while. All you can really do there is tell stories about the victims and survivors, because those are the characters. But the writers of TNG and VGR decided that wasn't enough. They decided they wanted to give the Borg a face and a voice so they could write about them on more of a character level, rather than just writing about people affected by the Borg. Did they absolutely have to do that? No. Writers of fiction rarely "have" to do anything, except keep writing. There's always more than one possible choice to make. But the choice they did make was one that had understandable dramatic reasons behind it. Turning a faceless foe into a more personified foe broadens the story possibilities.

And it's not an unprecedented decision. Terry Nation did the same thing with the Daleks of Doctor Who when he introduced Davros, their creator. He felt that Dalek stories had grown stale, so he added a villain with more personality to bring something fresh to the concept. And Stargate SG-1 did it too, when they introduced the humanoid Replicators after several seasons' worth of "metal bug" Replicators. It's a natural impulse for storytellers to want to tell stories about people rather than things.


And in the sense of being a faceless menace that cannot be negotiated with and will kill you, the Borg resemble zombies enough for the purpose of the analogy.
Not the analogy I was making.
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Old November 18 2011, 01:04 AM   #191
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

I think the real question is, Zombies vs Borg.. who wins?

And will the Borg try to assimilate a zombie?
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Old November 18 2011, 01:39 AM   #192
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Christopher wrote: View Post
Kegg wrote: View Post
in "Q Who?" the Borg do actually cut through the Enterprise and kill a chunk of crewmen.
No, they cut into the Enterprise and take a core sample of the ship. The fact that there are people in that core sample is of no concern to them. They're doing it to study the technology.
Actually, this assertion, at least, is false. The Borg speak only once in the whole episode, and say [according to http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/142.htm]:
WORF [OC]: Captain, we are being hailed.
PICARD: On screen.
(An interior view of the cube, all girders and scaffolding)
PICARD: This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the
BORG: (many voices speaking as one) We have analysed your defensive capabilities as being unable to withstand us. If you defend yourselves, you will be punished.
The Borg lock a tractor beam on and begin to drain shields. Picard orders phasers fired to resist and try to terminate the tractor beam, which fails. Then the Borg punish them, as promised. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that the Borg are addressing anyone except the crew in that dialog, and every reason to assume that they are, given the fact that the ship was hailed and evidently standard communications signals were sent to the Enterprise.
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Old November 18 2011, 01:39 AM   #193
Temis the Vorta
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Vendikarr wrote: View Post
I think the real question is, Zombies vs Borg.. who wins?

And will the Borg try to assimilate a zombie?
Hmm, there's a question I've never thought to ask. I think...yes! Zombies have an amazing attribute - they can be dead and yet still shamble around, hear sounds, make sounds, eat things, tell when something is good to eat (wriggling around) and when they should turn their noise up at it in a very feline way (canned ham? please!)

Pretty impressive. The Borg would pass up mere ordinary humans, Vulcans, etc in favor of assimilating such a unique species.
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Old November 18 2011, 01:46 AM   #194
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Whatever. I'm tired of arguing about the Borg, especially when we aren't even in a Trek forum. It's gotten to the hair-splitting point now and that's just not worth the effort.
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Old November 18 2011, 03:00 AM   #195
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Re: the state of sf/f TV development for 2012-13

Powers still alive but being retooled by FX: http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/fx-p...evelop-powers/
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