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Old November 12 2011, 07:59 PM   #31
BillJ
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

T'Girl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
we don't see her bartering with the merchant
Crusher: "I'll take the entire bolt. Send it to our starship when it arrives. Charge to Doctor Crusher. "

No barter necessary, she simply bought it outright.

Which would imply some type of currency exchanged hands.

But was "no money" a Roddenberry rule? Wasn't it originally introduced in The Voyage Home?
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Old November 12 2011, 10:20 PM   #32
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

BillJ wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
we don't see her bartering with the merchant
Crusher: "I'll take the entire bolt. Send it to our starship when it arrives. Charge to Doctor Crusher. "

No barter necessary, she simply bought it outright.

Which would imply some type of currency exchanged hands.

But was "no money" a Roddenberry rule? Wasn't it originally introduced in The Voyage Home?
The Federation could have some sort of credit system in order to allow itself and its citizens to trade with the outside universe. Within the Federation everyone gets what they want but if they deal with the outside they must provide something in return. Not saying that it necessarily has to work that way but I don't see such instances (another good example is DS9) as a contradiction to the Federation being something akin to a true Communist society (or whatever you want to call it).

And yes, I also believe that it was first introduced in "The Voyage Home", where it could mean anything, really - Kirk could have just meant that they normally used virtual money. But Picard's statements in "First Contact" can't be so easily dismissed.
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Old November 13 2011, 12:04 AM   #33
Therin of Andor
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

BillJ wrote: View Post
No. But since we don't see her bartering with the merchant, the Federation must have some type of value exchange system in place, i.e. money.
Well of course Starfleet has some method of reimbursing others for goods and service. The writers deliberately kept it vague as to how it works. (But it's not necessarily "money", if money is defined as coins and notes, that is.)

But was "no money" a Roddenberry rule? Wasn't it originally introduced in The Voyage Home?
"Credits" were introduced in "The Trouble With Tribbles" when Cyrano Jones was selling tribbles.
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Old November 13 2011, 12:06 AM   #34
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Count Zero wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Crusher: "I'll take the entire bolt. Send it to our starship when it arrives. Charge to Doctor Crusher. "

No barter necessary, she simply bought it outright.

Which would imply some type of currency exchanged hands.

But was "no money" a Roddenberry rule? Wasn't it originally introduced in The Voyage Home?
The Federation could have some sort of credit system in order to allow itself and its citizens to trade with the outside universe. Within the Federation everyone gets what they want but if they deal with the outside they must provide something in return. Not saying that it necessarily has to work that way but I don't see such instances (another good example is DS9) as a contradiction to the Federation being something akin to a true Communist society (or whatever you want to call it).

And yes, I also believe that it was first introduced in "The Voyage Home", where it could mean anything, really - Kirk could have just meant that they normally used virtual money. But Picard's statements in "First Contact" can't be so easily dismissed.
Each planet probably has it's own economy. What would be the point of the "Bank of Bolias" in the Federation if the Bolians didn't use money?
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Old November 13 2011, 12:33 AM   #35
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
I think the thing that bugged me most was the TNG 'our heroes don't' clause, the one that basically said that the main characters weren't supposed to admit any sort of character flaw or weakness in the realm of vices or some such
About vices, what about Scotty and his love affair with Scotch? The guy even hides a bottle or two in his quarters...I'm not saying he was alcoholic, but the man seems to have quite a high tolerance for whiskey...
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Old November 13 2011, 12:40 AM   #36
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Bixby wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
I think the thing that bugged me most was the TNG 'our heroes don't' clause, the one that basically said that the main characters weren't supposed to admit any sort of character flaw or weakness in the realm of vices or some such
About vices, what about Scotty and his love affair with Scotch? The guy even hides a bottle or two in his quarters...I'm not saying he was alcoholic, but the man seems to have quite a high tolerance for whiskey...
Everybody gots flaws. Ignoring them isn't going to make you a better person. In fact it probably makes you worse. [chuckle]
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Old November 13 2011, 01:18 AM   #37
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Count Zero wrote: View Post

But Picard's statements in "First Contact" can't be so easily dismissed.
But Roddenberry had passed away by the time of First Contact, so it's hard to hang it on him.
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Old November 13 2011, 01:23 AM   #38
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Gene was a revisionist. He considered much of The Original Series apocyraphl by the time The Next Generation began.
Didn't he also consider The Animated Series apocryphal? And the movie directed by Shatner? And certain episodes of TNG? Some people believe that if he had lived, he would have held the entire Dominion War to be apocryphal.

Count Zero wrote: View Post
Kirk could have just meant that they normally used virtual money.
Kirk certainly meant (among other things) that he didn't have anything in his pockets to pay for a pizza and beer. Whatever he used in the 23rd century to buy things (like his house in Idaho), he couldn't use in the 20th century, he didn't have access to his "account."

But Picard's statements in "First Contact" can't be so easily dismissed.
Picard said in the future "we're" much like Cochrane and Lily, who were building a warp ship to make money from it. Rose colored glasses Picard doesn't alway make sense.

brian577 wrote: View Post
Each planet probably has it's own economy. What would be the point of the "Bank of Bolias" in the Federation if the Bolians didn't use money?
Exactly this, each Federation member world likely possesses a unique financial, economic, cultural, political system.

We know through the episode Little Green Men that 24th century Earth does have a financial system where "money" changes hands. That's about as middle of the Federation as you can get.

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Old November 13 2011, 01:26 AM   #39
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Bixby wrote: View Post
About vices, what about Scotty and his love affair with Scotch? The guy even hides a bottle or two in his quarters...I'm not saying he was alcoholic, but the man seems to have quite a high tolerance for whiskey...
While it may look like a vice to us these days, Scotty's behaviour regarding alcohol was socially accepted, then.


BillJ wrote: View Post
Count Zero wrote: View Post

But Picard's statements in "First Contact" can't be so easily dismissed.
But Roddenberry had passed away by the time of First Contact, so it's hard to hang it on him.
It was a more general statement regarding the economy of the Federation. The posts I replied to seemed to go in that direction.
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Old November 13 2011, 02:23 AM   #40
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

The issue with having the crew fight among themselves was to create a unity on the Enterprise and an us-against-them attitude in the plots. It's not that the characters could never have disagreements, but he didn't want it to become a soap opera where the conflict was caused internally on the ship. Instead, it came from aliens or others off-ship. However, he didn't want space pirates because that idea was too obvious and cheesy. He wanted to set the bar higher than that easy go-to villain.
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Old November 13 2011, 02:58 AM   #41
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Star Trek did have pirates by name. Through TAS's The Pirate of Orion, which Roddenberry himself called one of their better first-draft scripts.

The TNG crew did "fight' between themselves. In the episode The Child, Worf position that pregnant Deanna should be taken to sickbay and have her son aborted wasn't popular. And the command crew had a spirited discussion about the prime directive in the episode where Data contact a child on a "primative" planet in Penpals. Doctor Pulaski didn't exactly get along with Picard.


While she was polite to him, it's pretty obvious that Janeway had no particular use for Chakotay.

In terms of soap opera, there were elements of such in the show, from time to time. LaForge's love life would be one example.

.
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Old November 13 2011, 03:06 AM   #42
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

Replicators can create anything except a living creature.

The Federation has virtually unlimited energy resources, courtesy of matter/antimatter annihilation.

So, tell me - what standard of value would the economy be based upon? Other than some kind of fascistic rationing of energy or restriction of access to replicators, what prevents anyone from having anything at any time?

It's funny that after five or six years of just dodging the question the writers had to invent latinum and claim that it wouldn't replicate for some technobabbble reason.
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Old November 13 2011, 03:46 AM   #43
T'Girl
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Replicators can create anything except a living creature.
Yes, and the stores nearby sell me almost anything, including living creatures. Plus there is the internet. Still need money.

The Federation has virtually unlimited energy resources, courtesy of matter/antimatter annihilation.
Seventy-five percent of my electrical power comes from free rain-fall and free melting snow.
Still need money.

So, tell me - what standard of value would the economy be based upon?
Intelligence, creativity, effort. People who work with their minds, would still make more money than people who work with their backs. People with personal talents and drive would make more money than those who lack such.

Other than some kind of fascistic rationing of energy or restriction of access to replicators, what prevents anyone from having anything at any time?
Operating cost of the replicator itself.

It's funny that after five or six years of just dodging the question the writers had to invent latinum and claim that it wouldn't replicate for some technobabbble reason.
I've considered that latinum might be chemically homogeneous, which means that it would be completely untraceable. Something the Ferengi and others might find appealing.

The writers invented latinum, and the Bolian bank, and Crusher's account, because Roddenberry's philosophy doesn't make sense. They create technobabbble explanations for the warp drive and transporter and other things, but they never did with the no money philosophy, because it doesn't make sense.

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Old November 13 2011, 03:57 AM   #44
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

It could make sense but they didn't think too much about it when they wrote those throwaway lines. And then they invented latinum as a simple explanation because I doubt many viewers would have been interested in lengthy explanations how the Federation's economy works. It's similar to all the other inconsistencies in the Trekverse.
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Old November 13 2011, 04:24 AM   #45
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Gene Roddenberry's weird rules

T'Girl wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Replicators can create anything except a living creature.
Yes, and the stores nearby sell me almost anything, including living creatures. Plus there is the internet. Still need money.
Nope. You only need money because the availability of those goods is limited. Replicators fix that.

The Federation has virtually unlimited energy resources, courtesy of matter/antimatter annihilation.
Seventy-five percent of my electrical power comes from free rain-fall and free melting snow.
Still need money.
Nope. However you get your energy, you're not an island. You have to pay for things because you're part of an economy based on scarcity.

Intelligence, creativity, effort. People who work with their minds, would still make more money than people who work with their backs. People with personal talents and drive would make more money than those who lack such.
No one's going to need money at all, and an artist can produce the most beautiful and one of a kind piece of work in the Universe...and who's going to pay for it, with what, when I can make all the gold/diamonds/whathaveyou that I want in an instant.

Oddly enough, the only exchangle that you'll be able to have is a kind of barter - I'll trade you my Picasso for your Rembrandt.


Other than some kind of fascistic rationing of energy or restriction of access to replicators, what prevents anyone from having anything at any time?
Operating cost of the replicator itself.
Psst - free energy. Operating costs = zero.

It's funny that after five or six years of just dodging the question the writers had to invent latinum and claim that it wouldn't replicate for some technobabbble reason.
I've considered that latinum might be chemically homogeneous, which means that it would be completely untraceable. Something the Ferengi and others might find appealing.

The writers invented latinum, and the Bolian bank, and Crusher's account, because Roddenberry's philosophy doesn't make sense.
Nope. They created it because the logic of Roddenberry's idea about the Federation made the existence of the Ferengi meaningless as a means of creating conflict - as writers pointed out to GR back in the beginnings of TNG.

You're 0 for 5 there. Try again.
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