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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 12 2011, 03:03 AM   #46
siskokid888
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
You're so right SISKO! It does just go to show how outstanding the show was!

Deliberate, or simply ethically misguided, the character of STONE represents a HUGE segment of real fellow-humans in our socio/politico/religo based world, and the different types of people who are it influencing operators.

Like them or not,... here they are LOL!

SISKO, seriously, let me ask you this, IF YOU WERE KIRK, would you have - without alterations - taken STONE's deal?
Wow, good question. The point though is that Kirk KNEW he was innocent, and thus would never agree to it. But if he actually HAD acted out of malice, would he (or I) take the deal? For the good of the service? Probably.
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Old November 12 2011, 08:30 AM   #47
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - No, no,... forget KIRK,.. it is YOU,... you know you are innocent,.. the hypothesis and situation is UN-CHANGED, just the subject,.. being you,... you are the same captain under the same hot lamp,...

(Doing my BEST Monty Hall for you here): DO YOU DEMAND THE INQUEST, and ROLL THE DICE WITH YOUR LIFE,.. KNOWING FULL WELL THIS HELMET-HEAD IS GOING TO TRY TO ROAST YOU ALIVE?,....

Ooooorrrrr,.... DO YOU TAKE THE DEAL STONE IS OFFERING,.... AND RETIRE COMFORTABLY TO A DESK JOB AND LIVE WITH THE EVER-LASTING SECRET DOUBT, SHAME, AND GUILT OF ASSOCIATION WITH CORRUPTION????



LOL!!!!! No more of you clever hedging now,.. what's it gonna be SISKO,... TAKE or PASS?
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Old November 12 2011, 09:21 AM   #48
jk82
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Commodore Robert Wesley - USS LEXINGTON - 'The Ultimate Computer'. You have to love this guy, he plays a 'straight-arrow Kirk' as good as any of Shatners' early performances. He is the embodiment of 'all the good' qualities in what we envision would be the basic requirement for all standard Captains entrusted with a Starship: Competent, Alert, Decisive, Humane, Insightful, ect.

In a way, he is almost 'too Kirk-like', and in point-of-fact, the whole trick of the plot DEPENDS on this fact of his Kirk-likeness, ensuring that his character, and therefore his actions, are predicable-being driven by his virtues-and therefore he does not, when tested, FRY the Enterprise and it's crew,.. along with Daystrom and the M-5 computer.
I am afraid I disagree with this assessment. Commodore Wesley may have "compassion" at the end as Kirk points out ( Kirk is the one with real compassion: He is just as ready to spare enemies lives, i.e., Balance of Terror, Journey to Babel as he is ready to save his own crew), but he certainly lacks correct judgment by committing a computer on board in a live ammunition war game without sufficient testing and safety measures. His inability to comprehend that a computer might make mistakes costs many fine men and women their lives in a meaningless way. He also ridicules Kirk by calling him "Captain Dunsel". Kirk may act like a dictator sometimes, and points out errors or inadequacies of his men, but he never ever berates or humiliates any of his men (unless it is to try to get them out of trouble, like in This Side of Paradise). Therefore I give Commodore Wesley a very low mark.
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Old November 12 2011, 12:41 PM   #49
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

jk82 wrote: View Post
Commodore Robert Wesley - USS LEXINGTON - 'The Ultimate Computer'. You have to love this guy, he plays a 'straight-arrow Kirk' as good as any of Shatners' early performances. He is the embodiment of 'all the good' qualities in what we envision would be the basic requirement for all standard Captains entrusted with a Starship: Competent, Alert, Decisive, Humane, Insightful, ect.

In a way, he is almost 'too Kirk-like', and in point-of-fact, the whole trick of the plot DEPENDS on this fact of his Kirk-likeness, ensuring that his character, and therefore his actions, are predicable-being driven by his virtues-and therefore he does not, when tested, FRY the Enterprise and it's crew,.. along with Daystrom and the M-5 computer.
I am afraid I disagree with this assessment. Commodore Wesley may have "compassion" at the end as Kirk points out ( Kirk is the one with real compassion: He is just as ready to spare enemies lives, i.e., Balance of Terror, Journey to Babel as he is ready to save his own crew), but he certainly lacks correct judgment by committing a computer on board in a live ammunition war game without sufficient testing and safety measures. His inability to comprehend that a computer might make mistakes costs many fine men and women their lives in a meaningless way. He also ridicules Kirk by calling him "Captain Dunsel". Kirk may act like a dictator sometimes, and points out errors or inadequacies of his men, but he never ever berates or humiliates any of his men (unless it is to try to get them out of trouble, like in This Side of Paradise). Therefore I give Commodore Wesley a very low mark.
JK82 - You have me really confused here, so I need some clarification please.

You state you disagree with my assessment of WESLEY,.. which is fine, but do you mean my assessment of WESLEY as he is used as a plot device?, Symbol, or the brief character sketch?

Which part is it exactly you disagree with?

It is hard to understand what it is you are actually disagreeing with, as you simply make a blanket statement, that you 'disagree'.

Normally, after specifying their position, one would then support said position, pro or con,... however, you presented a dissertation about KIRK,... which leaves me even more confused.

Also, in your remarks about KIRK - unless I am totally misunderstanding you - somehow because KIRK while operating under orders from SFC to have installed and engage the M-5 Multitronic unit on the Enterprise, fully armed and with no manual over-ride, in a live-fire exercise, is somehow connected to WESLEY ?????

You totally lost me with that.

As far as WESLEY's "Captain Dunsel' crack,... I think we worked that out a few posts back,... I believe the concensus was: While totally out-of-line, it was nothing more than good-natured hazing between two former class-mates, albeit coming off in very bad taste, being broadcast on open speaker. Careless and insensitive to be sure.

In point-of-fact, the DUNSEL thing was side-bar commentary to the actual subject of the conversation which was: Symbolism, Foreshadowing, and Plot Devices.

However, my personal opinion, and this is pure speculation, is the underline message behind the DUNSEL reference from WESLEY to KIRK is: "If this thing of SFC and DAYSTROM works, all of us Starship captains are going to end up as a group of 'Captain Dunsels',.. reflecting WESLEY disdain for the machine itself, and not KIRK.

Again, this is my personal opinion, and I can only meagerly support that opinion indirectly by pointing to all the ANTI-MACHINE messages presented in the HUMAN VS. MACHINE stories, repeatedly, in one from or another,throughout the entire run of the series.

But, like I say, that is just MY PERSONAL OPINION, and it is not germane to the actual subject of the conversation, but since it is the only part of your post which was definitive, and required no extra clarifications, I am responding to that.

Anyway JK82, help me out here so I can understand what it is you are trying to say.

Thanks.
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Old November 12 2011, 07:19 PM   #50
siskokid888
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Location: Either Quark's, or a bar on St. Mark's Place
Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
SISKO - No, no,... forget KIRK,.. it is YOU,... you know you are innocent,.. the hypothesis and situation is UN-CHANGED, just the subject,.. being you,... you are the same captain under the same hot lamp,...

(Doing my BEST Monty Hall for you here): DO YOU DEMAND THE INQUEST, and ROLL THE DICE WITH YOUR LIFE,.. KNOWING FULL WELL THIS HELMET-HEAD IS GOING TO TRY TO ROAST YOU ALIVE?,....

Ooooorrrrr,.... DO YOU TAKE THE DEAL STONE IS OFFERING,.... AND RETIRE COMFORTABLY TO A DESK JOB AND LIVE WITH THE EVER-LASTING SECRET DOUBT, SHAME, AND GUILT OF ASSOCIATION WITH CORRUPTION????



LOL!!!!! No more of you clever hedging now,.. what's it gonna be SISKO,... TAKE or PASS?
Man, quite the prosecutor! If I'm innocent, I'm going to trial, and if convicted will spend my jail time working to clear my name. I'm beginning to come around to your argument, though. I'm watching the Penn State game, thinking about how those jerks dropped the ball in regards to those poor kids. Probably for the same reason as Stone-to protect the institution and the football program. If they were wrong, than Stone was wrong.
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Old November 13 2011, 02:32 AM   #51
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

ROFLMAO!!! Oh SISKO,... LOL!!!

Yes, that is EXACTLY the point,... The PSU people are as guilty as STONE HOWEVER,...

I have to commend you on not only trying, once, BUT TWICE, to not answer TAKE or PASS,..

And I give you bonus points for trying the MIS-DIRECTING tactic of the OT reference,... and give you DOUBLE sneaky points for using the word FOOTBALL,..

Hoping to escape in a sea of 'rah, rah, football posts' that may generate by you bringing it up,.. inviting the de-rail for you to hide and escape,... LOL!!!!!

Very sneaky SISKO,.. how very Romulan of you LOL!

Now,... stop struggling,... and answer
: PASS or TAKE


SISSSSSKKKKOOO!!!!

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Old November 13 2011, 02:56 AM   #52
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Man, you're looking specific- if I'm innocent, I don't take the deal. If I'm guilty, I take it

"and now, she's gone"

Kirk - "ah ha ha ha ha ha"

Dagger of the Mind - I could never figure it out - is Kirk laughing or crying?
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Old November 13 2011, 06:39 AM   #53
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - Well, there is no "IF" in the hypothesis, you are innocent. So you choose to draw a Board of Inquiry, and (with such apparently overwhelming evidence) subject yourself to the findings and decision of a General Court Martial,...

The episode takes a HUGE dynamic of gravity when we put ourselves in KIRK's dilemma,... it becomes powerful, yes?

OKAY - now,... before we address your 'extra' answer about 'IF' you are Guilty (what a time-bomb THAT answer was! - should have stuck to PASS or TAKE Sisko),..

Let's move to your 'Bonus Round'.

You ARE innocent and you choose to PASS the deal and fight the false charges and evidence facing you.

WHY?

SIDE-BAR: Too true about Shatners' cry/laugh,... but it is only confusing,.. as opposed to his Janice Lester bits, which are just plain old creepy in a John Wayne Gacey disturbing way LOL!
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Old November 13 2011, 07:52 PM   #54
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Because to take the deal would seem to be an admission of guilt, or at least culpability. If innocent i'd put my faith in the Federation justice system, which might not exonerate me immediately, but hopefully in the near future justice would be served. (And it would have, as Finney would have had to eventually come out of hiding!)
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Old November 13 2011, 09:01 PM   #55
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Fair enough SISKO, so you are saying that you would PASS the crooked deal and fight for JUSTICE, with FAITH in that system, since you are innocent you should not have to take unjust responsibility or accountability for a crime of which you are not guilty.

And you are probably right,... even if SFC found you guilty, FINNEY has a high probability of being discovered eventually,... I mean after all, even though there are food synth machines all over the ship,... he guys HAS to go the bathroom sometime, and someone is bound to run into him there, or discover him behind some machinery in engineering, if he is known to snore.

And yet,... here is where it gets really interesting,... IF GUILTY, you would TAKE the corrupt deal, and exploit that same legal system to harbor you in comfort,... heh, heh, heh,... knowing full well you are a flat-out murderer,.... and by doing so, thereby embrace and contribute to the degradation and erosion of the very same system you want to be able to put your trust in, so to provide justice to you when you are innocent.

SISKO?,.. Will the REAL Captain SISKO please stand up.


Okay SISKO,... what do you think?
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Old November 14 2011, 08:14 PM   #56
siskokid888
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

^ Well, here's the thing - if my morals are so corrupt as to kill a crewman and lie about it, then I'm sure as heck corrupt enough to take the poison deal. So if I was guilty of what they were accusing Kirk of, you bet your bippy I'm taking Stone's deal.
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Old November 15 2011, 01:40 AM   #57
7thsealord
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

siskokid888 wrote: View Post
^ Well, here's the thing - if my morals are so corrupt as to kill a crewman and lie about it, then I'm sure as heck corrupt enough to take the poison deal. So if I was guilty of what they were accusing Kirk of, you bet your bippy I'm taking Stone's deal.
Very interesting thought there. Maybe Stone was "playing" Kirk, seeing if he would go for the easy option.
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Old November 15 2011, 06:01 AM   #58
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

siskokid888 wrote: View Post
^ Well, here's the thing - if my morals are so corrupt as to kill a crewman and lie about it, then I'm sure as heck corrupt enough to take the poison deal. So if I was guilty of what they were accusing Kirk of, you bet your bippy I'm taking Stone's deal.

Hey there SISKO -

Good to see you back. Well yes, exactly,... but the DILEMMA, which is set up perfectly, demonstrates two things to me:

1) STAR TREK at its finest; not just in terms of 'episode', but in terms of working into the story premise (acutally the story premise is adroitly weaved around the dilemma) very challenging moral, social, ethical, political, religious, etc, issues - without the UNABASHED SOCIAL INDOCTRINATION SPEECHES, so prevalent in later episodes - and almost subliminally, causes the viewer to become slightly more self-examining, by viewing them.

2) I further feel, as demonstrated by your own struggle, which is common to probably 98% of our worlds population today,... that at his core, man is a self-serving beast (no offense pal) and will, when given the chance, toss away his claim to civility, IF it means preserving, advancing or enhancing his existence, YET demands that same civility to be in place, honored, and enforced when it also suits his need to preserve, advance, or enhance is existence.

So who are the other 2% which are unaccounted for?,...

That figure is a wishful estimate, representing the possibility that when given the PASS or TAKE option,... there MAY just exist such a man IF GUILTY that would exclaim,.. "I PASS on the corrupt deal being offered me, AND I plead GUILITY".

I know,.. it's rarely gonna happen in this life time,.... but when one is an IDEALIST,.. and TREK was originally writing Moral Dilemma puzzle-stories with idealogical solutions,...

That in my opinion is what made TREK superior to anything else written for TV.

OKAY SISKO - You are off the examination table,.... and it your turn now to give me one back from a different episode,....

I hear you snickering and grinding your hands together out there SiSKO LOL!!

"Bet my Bippy" LOL!
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Last edited by Captain Tracy; November 15 2011 at 07:06 AM.
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Old November 15 2011, 06:05 AM   #59
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

7thsealord wrote: View Post
siskokid888 wrote: View Post
^ Well, here's the thing - if my morals are so corrupt as to kill a crewman and lie about it, then I'm sure as heck corrupt enough to take the poison deal. So if I was guilty of what they were accusing Kirk of, you bet your bippy I'm taking Stone's deal.
Very interesting thought there. Maybe Stone was "playing" Kirk, seeing if he would go for the easy option.
7THSEALORD - Two things:

1) You are one of the brightest folks on the board, deviously clever.

HOWEVER,...

2) Nice try - but STONE is a 'COMPANY MAN' through and through.
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Old November 15 2011, 02:11 PM   #60
7thsealord
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
siskokid888 wrote: View Post
^ Well, here's the thing - if my morals are so corrupt as to kill a crewman and lie about it, then I'm sure as heck corrupt enough to take the poison deal. So if I was guilty of what they were accusing Kirk of, you bet your bippy I'm taking Stone's deal.
Very interesting thought there. Maybe Stone was "playing" Kirk, seeing if he would go for the easy option.
7THSEALORD - Two things:

1) You are one of the brightest folks on the board, deviously clever.

HOWEVER,...

2) Nice try - but STONE is a 'COMPANY MAN' through and through.
1) You flatter me, sir.

2) ... And your point is?

People very easily accept that Stone must have flouted regs and basic decency just to try and cover the ass of a fellow officer. I see nothing against the possibility that Stone might have in fact been trying to draw Kirk out, and see if he went for the secret handshake deal.

Doesn't necessarily prove that Stone would have gone through with this alleged deal - he might have instead simply recused himself from the CM Board and instead stood as a witness for additional charges. If you are going to nail someone for major crimes, then nail him HARD.

All very very theoretical, true, but I see nothing against this idea. It does seem that Fed Starbase commanders have extremely broad powers ("The Only Law West Of The Pecos", so to speak?) - just look at the crap that goes on in TNG's 'Measure Of A Man'.

We are, after all, trying to "explain" aspects of a show that was being produced over 40 years ago under especially tight time and budgetary constraints. It is far from the only time a TV show has taken major shortcuts to make for more drama and/or less cost.
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