Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

[Davros]

The Overlord wrote:

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So why are TOS films better then the TNG films?

because the original show was better than Next Gen was.

[Anwar]

Nah, there was just more desire for the TOS movies. And TNG more or less was wrapped up by S7, whereas TOS did have more loose ends they could turn into movies.

[Therin of Andor]

sonak wrote:

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Of course, Generations would have needed to be a very different film.

A telemovie, kicking off a series of Riker/Troi telemovies. But Paramount wanted a feature film series to replace TOS movies.

[sonak]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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A telemovie, kicking off a series of Riker/Troi telemovies. But Paramount wanted a feature film series to replace TOS movies.

It seems like you think losing Picard is the bigger deal, with the concern that Frakes couldn't carry a movie series.

So do you think the movie series would have done fine without Brent Spiner?(obviously assuming major re-writes of the films, like a different sub-plot for Generations, etc.)

[AdmiralScreed]

Personally, I think they could have gone on without Spiner, but Stewart was indispensable. He was the captain of the ship, and if you look back at the TV series many of the best episodes were episodes that he had a large role in. Here are a few:

The Inner Light
Darmok
Family
BOBW P1/P2
Tapestry
The Measure of a Man (both Picard AND Data)
All Good Things

While I love TNG and I love the ensemble cast, I feel like the show would have been missing something really important if Picard hadn't been there.

[AdmiralScreed]

Davros wrote:

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because the original show was better than Next Gen was.

I disagree. IMO, TNG is superior to TOS in every way possible; acting, writing, music, special effects, costumes, etc.

The reason the TNG movies were less of a success is because the writing was generally pretty sloppy, and in the case of Nemesis the acting wasn't all that great either.

Some people say that there was too much focus on Picard and Data, but I don't think that was the real problem; FC proves that if written well, Picard and Data in the main roles can work just fine.

[BillJ]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Patrick, Brent, their agents and Paramount disagree with you.

"Generations" without the participation of Picard and/or Data would not have been tenable. Those actors' fan mail piles outnumbered everyone else's.

I've watched many studios and sports teams make huge mistakes over the years because someone is "popular". I'm sure that Shatner and Nimoy both had far larger mail piles than Stewart and Spiner when TNG started. TNG was the proof that Trek was bigger than any single actor. I'm not sure it would've hurt the film series for Stewart and Spiner to have departed as movie Picard and Data bore little resemblance to their TV counterparts. With Star Trek it's always come down to the quality of the writing.

Star Trek became far too conservative under Bermans watch. Only making changes when they were absolutely forced to change. Creatively, live-action Star Trek went bankrupt (only DS9 attempted to break the mold but far too often fell back into Trek cliches).

As in all things, YMMV.

[Therin of Andor]

sonak wrote:

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It seems like you think losing Picard is the bigger deal

So did Paramount.

with the concern that Frakes couldn't carry a movie series.

IIRC, so did Frakes, but that didn't stop Sirtis talking up such a show at conventions.

So do you think the movie series would have done fine without Brent Spiner?(obviously assuming major re-writes of the films, like a different sub-plot for Generations, etc.)

No, people would have complained bitterly that Data was absent.

Including me.

[Lucky]

I felt the TNG movies suffered from writing. Only First Contact lived up to the best of the TOS films.

[JarodRussell]

AdmiralScreed wrote:

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Some people say that there was too much focus on Picard and Data, but I don't think that was the real problem; FC proves that if written well, Picard and Data in the main roles can work just fine.

That's because in FC, everyone else had actually plenty to do.

[siskokid888]

They're not. The Meyer-Bennett-Shatner-Nimoy films were hokey hamfisted storytelling with lousy production values (they all were identified in Hollywood as "low budget genre films) and horribly forced humor and relationships. First Contact blows them away in any of these categories. Insurrection is also better. Generations suffers from MBSN hangover, while Nemesis, while still having superior production values, is a result of the same actor ego problem (Spiner and, to a lesser extent, Stewart) that gave us the atrocity of STV TFF. Given a choice right now to watch any Trek film, I would pick JJ Trek, followed by TMP and FC.

[AdmiralScreed]

JarodRussell wrote:

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That's because in FC, everyone else had actually plenty to do.

Yes, they were given things to do, but the main focus was still on Picard and Data.

[sonak]

siskokid888 wrote:

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They're not. The Meyer-Bennett-Shatner-Nimoy films were hokey hamfisted storytelling with lousy production values (they all were identified in Hollywood as "low budget genre films) and horribly forced humor and relationships. First Contact blows them away in any of these categories. Insurrection is also better. Generations suffers from MBSN hangover, while Nemesis, while still having superior production values, is a result of the same actor ego problem (Spiner and, to a lesser extent, Stewart) that gave us the atrocity of STV TFF. Given a choice right now to watch any Trek film, I would pick JJ Trek, followed by TMP and FC.

yes, you can go right to TMP, with its superior production values, slow and tedious storytelling, thin plot borrowed from a TOS episode, stiff and awkward characters, and padded with a half-hour of special effects.


And ridiculous-looking uniforms.

[Therin of Andor]

sonak wrote:

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And ridiculous-looking uniforms.

I'm curious. Why pick sonak as a namesake?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jon_Rashad_Kamal

[sonak]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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I'm curious. Why pick sonak as a namesake?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jon_Rashad_Kamal

it's more the Vulcan thing. I've always thought the Vulcans were neat, but didn't want to pick a really obvious one like Spock, Tuvok, Sarek, etc.

It didn't really have anything to do with TMP, it's just Sonak was (1) a Vulcan character and (2) relatively obscure.