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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 10 2011, 05:10 AM   #31
DakotaSmith
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
I'd really like hear what both you and 7THSEA have to say on Commodore Stone.
Well, he's kind of a weasel ... but to be honest, that's the kind of white-washing that goes on from time to time in real life.

Had Jack Webb produced Star Trek, we would no doubt have had a conversation about how Kirk can't be excused from prosecution and that it's only fair. However, this was GR's Star Trek, so Stone wanted to sweep it under the rug rather than deal with a scandal.

Having worked lots of places where this happened, I don't really fault Stone for it. It's common procedure when a scandal that might impact a company is involved. You deal with it internally, and you shut up about it otherwise.

And besides, even though he's black, Commodore Stone could be a descendant of mine, so I have to be lenient with him.

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Old November 10 2011, 05:52 AM   #32
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

DakotaSmith wrote: View Post
Had Jack Webb produced Star Trek, we would no doubt have had a conversation about how Kirk can't be excused from prosecution and that it's only fair. - Dakota Smith
Priceless,... Jack Webb producing Star Trek,... Daa, daa, duum, duum, dee,.... What a concpet! LOL!!!

Talk about the Totalitarian Federation of Planets!!! Complete with not one, but two,... count 'em TWO security guards in every room and hallway! LOL!

You know Dakota, you are right of course; it is a sad fact of everyday life in the corporate sector, the military, and such,.. but I guess what gets me is that the whole TREK premise is based, and touts,.. oh how it touts,... the whole, everyone is equal, justice for all, we have evolved beyond all THAT,... so when you encounter a high-acting character like STONE, who then reveals himself to be a typical 21st century 'company man',... well, you know.

"Commodore STONE a descendant of yours"???,... Did anyone every tell you're a wise-@ss Dakota LOL!!!!!!!!

Seriously, thanks for the feedback,..... Jack Webb producing,.. my head is buoyant at the thought!
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Old November 10 2011, 06:03 AM   #33
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

7thsealord wrote: View Post
So, the main allegation is that FDR sacrificed a fleet of obsolescent battleships (plus crews), but took special care to move the essential aircraft carriers out of danger. This notion totally ignores the strategic naval thinking of the time. Staunch carrier advocates existed on both sides, but most were relatively junior and all were regarded as at least slightly loony.
I am with the gist of your comments but I have to disagree on that point. By 1941 the US Navy had some very senior leaders who were not only enthusiastic about aviation but in positions do do something about it. A carrier admiral, Joseph M. Reeves, had reached the position of Commander-in-Chief US Fleet back in 1934. Another, Harry Yarnell, had commanded the Asiatic Fleet in the buildup of tension with Japan including the Panay incident. At the time of Pearl Harbor, another carrier admiral, Ernest King, was leading the quasi-war with U-boats as CinC Atlantic Fleet, and would soon be called upon to take command of the entire wartime US Navy. One of the navy's three vice admiral slots was reserved for the fleet carrier command, equal to the fleet battleships. The Navy Bureau of Aeronautics had a strong presence in Washington, more powerful than any comparable body in the UK or Japan (or the War Department).

The top brass in the RN, the USN, and the IJN still regarded battleships as all-important - and aircraft carriers as a very experimental adjunct to the hallowed Line Of Battle. This was despite the notable early successes of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (at Taranto and versus the Bismarck) - noting also that Taranto was the inspiration for the Pearl Harbour attack.
The Fleet Problems of the 1930s had dramatically demonstrated to all but the most hidebound members of the Gun Club that naval aviation was too important to be a sideline. How carriers should be operate with the battle line was still being worked out, but the USN was well on its way to being an "air navy" at the time of Pearl Harbor. Appropriations for aircraft and air training in the late '30s and the positioning of key aviation leaders in important fleet posts laid much of the groundwork that enabled the USN to defeat the Japanese carrier force at Midway (which wasn't pure luck as some like to say).

Aside from the fine points made earlier, a FDR Pearl Harbor conspiracy doesn't make sense by simple logic: Once the armed Japanese planes enter T.H. airspace, there's the casus belli, they don't have to sink anything. The forewarned battle fleet could have steamed out Saturday night and left an empty harbor and FDR would still have justification for war.


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Old November 10 2011, 06:54 AM   #34
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
"Commodore STONE a descendant of yours"???,... Did anyone every tell you're a wise-@ss Dakota LOL!!!!!!!!
Actually, I had fans give me that gag back in the 1970s by virtue of my last name. The subtext made it -- at that time -- a bit more scandalous.

I'm extremely white and rarely even tan; Commodore Stone is obviously a black man. Other fans would giggle and occasionally joke about how I must be going to marry a black girl some day.

My response was always, "Absolutely. I'm going to marry Nichelle Nichols."

As I say, in the 1970s it was a bit more scandalous than it would be now. However, the gag didn't originate with me, but other fans. Blame Star Base Andromeda -- I've just been repeating it for 35 years.

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Old November 10 2011, 06:54 AM   #35
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Damn,.. that is impressive! You know guys, I know nothing about WWII, so your whole thing is literally blowing me away, it is awesome, but I am clueless,... it is fascinating though, I wonder how it might play as a TREK script,... interesting, indeed!

DAKOTA - 'rarely even tan',... your KILLING me here LOL!!!!!
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Old November 10 2011, 12:32 PM   #36
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
7thsealord wrote: View Post
So, the main allegation is that FDR sacrificed a fleet of obsolescent battleships (plus crews), but took special care to move the essential aircraft carriers out of danger. This notion totally ignores the strategic naval thinking of the time. Staunch carrier advocates existed on both sides, but most were relatively junior and all were regarded as at least slightly loony.
I am with the gist of your comments but I have to disagree on that point. By 1941 the US Navy had some very senior leaders who were not only enthusiastic about aviation but in positions do do something about it. A carrier admiral, Joseph M. Reeves, had reached the position of Commander-in-Chief US Fleet back in 1934. Another, Harry Yarnell, had commanded the Asiatic Fleet in the buildup of tension with Japan including the Panay incident. At the time of Pearl Harbor, another carrier admiral, Ernest King, was leading the quasi-war with U-boats as CinC Atlantic Fleet, and would soon be called upon to take command of the entire wartime US Navy. One of the navy's three vice admiral slots was reserved for the fleet carrier command, equal to the fleet battleships. The Navy Bureau of Aeronautics had a strong presence in Washington, more powerful than any comparable body in the UK or Japan (or the War Department).

The top brass in the RN, the USN, and the IJN still regarded battleships as all-important - and aircraft carriers as a very experimental adjunct to the hallowed Line Of Battle. This was despite the notable early successes of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (at Taranto and versus the Bismarck) - noting also that Taranto was the inspiration for the Pearl Harbour attack.
The Fleet Problems of the 1930s had dramatically demonstrated to all but the most hidebound members of the Gun Club that naval aviation was too important to be a sideline. How carriers should be operate with the battle line was still being worked out, but the USN was well on its way to being an "air navy" at the time of Pearl Harbor. Appropriations for aircraft and air training in the late '30s and the positioning of key aviation leaders in important fleet posts laid much of the groundwork that enabled the USN to defeat the Japanese carrier force at Midway (which wasn't pure luck as some like to say).

Aside from the fine points made earlier, a FDR Pearl Harbor conspiracy doesn't make sense by simple logic: Once the armed Japanese planes enter T.H. airspace, there's the casus belli, they don't have to sink anything. The forewarned battle fleet could have steamed out Saturday night and left an empty harbor and FDR would still have justification for war.


Justin
Points very well taken, and I certainly was not denigrating the USN. But the Battleship mentality was still very strong despite these changes - hence the move of stationing a buttload of battleships ready to move against Japan. As regards the state of the US carriers in 1941, while changes were on the way they were only "just" getting rid of the godawful 'Brewster Buffalo' fighter, for example.

Consider the IJN, who arguably had an equal if not somewhat stronger carrier fleet (at least on paper). This was kept incredibly busy in the early stages of the Pacific War, raiding as far south as Darwin and as far east as Ceylon. The majority of Japan's battlehips, however? They (including the superbattleships Yamato and Musashi) were nicknamed the "Hashirajima Fleet", because they spent most of the war at that port - mainly waiting for the huge Jutland-style "decisive battle" with the USN that the IJN's Admiralty was CERTAIN would come. But it never did - at least, not as they thought it would.

.... And, yes, the US victory at Midway was not pure luck. It can be argued quite solidly that nearly all the mistakes made before or during the battle were by the Japanese. Fuchida himself admits this in a book he co-wrote post-war. But luck was still pretty derned important. As is often the case.
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Old November 10 2011, 01:04 PM   #37
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

I don't buy that Sarek married Amanda because he knocked her up. For them to produce a child would (IMO) have required far more medical intervention than simply forgetting about birth control. Are we forgetting about copper-based blood versus iron-based blood? And that is just for starters. It is amazing enough that Humans and Vulcans are so sexually compatible despite their differances, without deciding that they can successfully interbreed without a heckuva lot of outside help.

I believe "It was the logical thing to do..." was partly humour on Sarek's part (especially given where / when / how this line is used). Yes, we have seen several Vulcans who have displayed a sense of humour - that is why they make such great straight men. Mostly, though, it was (IMO) Sarek's way of saying that personal feelings (they loved each other) dive-tailed very nicely with The Big Picture (encouraging Humans and Vulcans to get along).

*****

Regarding Commodore Stone. Not a lot I have to say here. His "offer" to Kirk may seem odious to some, but it wasn't like he was calling for facts to be changed. If Jim Kirk had stepped up, admitted his guilt and taken what was coming (loss of command, etc.), then a messy expensive (in manpower, anyhow) trial and (more than likely) a load of paperwork would be avoided.

Plus, Commodore Stone probably (at that very early stage) saw the offence as errors in judgement and/or some kind of aberration on Jim Kirk's part, rather than as deliberate murder. He was a brilliant officer, and no good would have been served (to the deceased, Star Fleet, the Federation or Kirk himself) by nailing him to a cross (so to speak). Kirk (as far as could be determined) had clearly done The Wrong Thing, or a couple of same, and had to account for that - but that did not equate with going all 'Old Testament' and destroying him completely.

One sees this happen in trials, and for good reason. Admit your guilt, and it takes the onus off the court trying to prove whether or not you did the deed. The punishment is usually more lenient (even if only slightly) in such cases.

Last edited by 7thsealord; November 10 2011 at 01:31 PM.
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Old November 10 2011, 07:09 PM   #38
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Commodore Robert Wesley - USS LEXINGTON - 'The Ultimate Computer'. You have to love this guy, he plays a 'straight-arrow Kirk' as good as any of Shatners' early performances. He is the embodiment of 'all the good' qualities in what we envision would be the basic requirement for all standard Captains entrusted with a Starship: Competent, Alert, Decisive, Humane, Insightful, ect.
I agree except for one thing: The "Captain Dunsel" remark. That really knocks him down in my estimation. To utter such a petty comment, demeaning an officer publicly in front of his crew, was disgraceful.

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Bottom line, STONE is simply a corrupt bureaucrat in the guise of a sterling Officer, and that is why I 'double hate' him.
Those comments on Como. Stone are definitely hard to argue with. I think sometimes we may be too quick to accept that kind of back-room deal as just "something that happens" with powerful people. OTOH the whole thing should make us question Starfleet's justice system: Why are the investigator, the board of inquiry, the court-martial's convening authority, and the president of the court all the same person, Stone? That's like a criminal case where the same guy is the police detective, the DA, the judge and the jury. I understand why it works dramatically, but at the same time it keeps me from getting too het up over Stone's corruption.

DakotaSmith wrote: View Post
I have no idea what people outside Nebraska think of him -- if they think of him at all. I'm pretty sure they don't think of him as Debra Winger's old boyfriend.
I think of him as the disabled combat veteran and Medal of Honor recipient who was a Democratic senator for many years and was Debra Winger's old boyfriend.

7thsealord wrote: View Post
Points very well taken, and I certainly was not denigrating the USN. But the Battleship mentality was still very strong despite these changes - hence the move of stationing a buttload of battleships ready to move against Japan.
Agreed, it was just the "relatively junior" and "slightly looney" comments I took issue with.


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Old November 10 2011, 07:58 PM   #39
Anachronus
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

7thsealord wrote: View Post
.... And, yes, the US victory at Midway was not pure luck. It can be argued quite solidly that nearly all the mistakes made before or during the battle were by the Japanese. Fuchida himself admits this in a book he co-wrote post-war. But luck was still pretty derned important. As is often the case.
You should read Paschall and Tully's "Shattered Sword" which is the best book on Midway to come out in a long while. Fuchida frankly lied in his book to save "face". It would be interesting to speculate on what would have happened if he had been right, i.e. the Japanese strike groups being on the flight deck rather than in the hangers when the USN dive bombers hit.
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Old November 10 2011, 07:59 PM   #40
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Sorry that last post is WAAAAAAY OT, just an amateur naval historian babbling on.
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Old November 11 2011, 03:18 AM   #41
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Too True ANACHRONUS LOL!! However, it was all so well written and informative, that I keep wondering how the whole "Pearl Harbor" thing might be gutted and re-fit into a TREK story!

JUSTIN - Interesting observation about WESLEY's 'Dunsel' remark, as I can recall the first time I saw the episode I thought it was really out-of-line as well. However, by the end of the episode, I came to realize that is was just more of some pretty harsh hazing, from one buddy to another,... hey what are friends for anyway, they are the guys you can always count on to be hanging around laughing at you when our down on your @ss LOL!

On STONE: You are so right! People in today's world are so ready to except that sort of thing as the norm, as sadly, it has become the norm,... and yet in Star Trek's world, we were told repeatedly, "no such primitive thinking exists today",... however, if Star Trek was the Utopia they often CLAIMED it to be - LOOk OUT!,.. here comes Kirk reading the Declaration of Independence again!!! LOL! - then characters like STONE would not, COULD NOT exist, especially at such a high level,... unless of course the corruption runs so much deeper,... heh heh heh.

As you pointed out, due to the TV Budget, we are stuck with a 'One man Judge, Jury, Executioner, thing', but that is no way excuses the 'Fishy Deal'.

I WISH someone would playback the visual computer log IN STONES OFFICE before a general board of inquiry, and see what they think about the 'deal" he offered KIRK,... LOL!!!! Let STONE pull FERRIS, FOX, and NILZ BARRIS as the board he faces,.. LOL!!!
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Old November 11 2011, 07:41 PM   #42
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Hey there SISKO,

I am glad you asked about Commodore STONE. You are correct on his overall 'appearance', and yes, under normal circumstances, he must be an outstanding Officer, however,...

What STONE is actually offering KIRK is "the blind eye - no scandals" routine. STONE is not interested in THE TRUTH, and in point-of-fact, he is very motivated to not to even have the TRUTH examined for fear it might tarnish the illusion he and his cronies cling to........
You're making the assumption that Stone will not take any further action after Kirk took his "deal". Remember, he says "I'm thinking of the service, I won't have it sullied". He realizes that if it becomes general knowledge that a STARSHIP CAPTAIN murdered someone out of malice, it would bring into question Starfleet's selection procedures as well as cast a shadow on every ship captain in the fleet. Maybe after Kirk is busted, Stone initiates a review and overhaul of Starfleet selection procedures and psychological testing and has every captain in the fleet re-evaluated. Thus improvements are made without destroying the integrity of the service. Needs of the many and all that. And assigning a man like Kirk to a desk is as close as you can come to the death penalty for him without actually doing him in. As a high ranking officer, Stone's job is to do what he did-address the problem and protect the service.
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Old November 11 2011, 10:53 PM   #43
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO - That's the whole problem with STONE'S deal, just as you laid out, by STONE's own words: "I am thinking of the good of the Service", he is also saying he is willing to create a cover-up and impede the entire moral and legal base of the culture, by offering:

1) No JUSTICE for Finney

2) No TRUTH for Finneys family, and society as a whole

3) As PUNISHMENT for MURDER 1,...a Desk Job with Benefits?

Hell even KIRK, is ready to desk STONE as one corrupt M.F.: "So that's how we do it now,... just swept it under the rug"


SCENE OF THE REAL CRIME FROM 'COURT MARTIAL'


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Old November 12 2011, 02:20 AM   #44
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Your point is well taken, but I still see Stone as a man trying to do his job and fulfill his duty. These are the things that made Trek just a great damn show!
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Old November 12 2011, 02:51 AM   #45
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

You're so right SISKO! It does just go to show how outstanding the show was!

Deliberate, or simply ethically misguided, the character of STONE represents a HUGE segment of real fellow-humans in our socio/politico/religo based world, and the different types of people who are it influencing operators.

Like them or not,... here they are LOL!

SISKO, seriously, let me ask you this, IF YOU WERE KIRK, would you have - without alterations - taken STONE's deal?

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