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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 9 2011, 04:48 AM   #16
Captain Tracy
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Great points Dakota,... I too often wondered if an all Vulcan ship would, pardon the pun, LOGICALLY have a Vulcan captain,... and yet,... we learn in 'Amok Time', that Spock is the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet,...

Now, that would make one think that IF a Vulcan were a Starship captain, he would be more exhaulted than Mr. Spock,... so if you follow that, and take into account the above, then we are back to Krasnovsky and Chandra,...?

Also I recall what you mean about there being a list in STONE'S office,.. but to have 3 of 12 Starships at one Starbase at the same time is a bit of a stretch, when you consider the size of the galaxy the FED patrols, let alone considering even more Starships and more Captains running about this same Starbase at the same time,... must have been a one hell of an Ion Storm out there!!!! LOL!

Puzzling, you see! LOL!
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Old November 9 2011, 05:02 AM   #17
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

The Vulcan captain may not have been as famous as Spock. Then again, not like TOS mentions that many famous anyones in Star Fleet. Might have just had a lot more seniority than Spock - with a 200-plus year lifespan, expect that Vulcans can put in a LOT of career time.

Regarding the ships at the Star Base, there may have been something "big" happening or impending in that particular sector (and unmentioned in the CM episode). Wargames? Fears about a hostile incursion? That would explain three starships being in the same patch.

Also, not to get into political correctness, but who says the Vulcan captain had to be a "he"? Fairly sure that the gender of the 'Intrepid' CO is not mentioned or implied anyplace in TOS.
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Old November 9 2011, 06:03 AM   #18
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Now, that would make one think that IF a Vulcan were a Starship captain, he would be more exhaulted than Mr. Spock,... so if you follow that, and take into account the above, then we are back to Krasnovsky and Chandra,...?
Well, to be honest, I ultimately decided that Spock was the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet -- but for a variety of reasons:

Firstly, he was the son of the planet's Ambassador to the Federation. Theoretically, the Ambassador to the Federation would be the voice of Vulcan at the Federation Council. Whatever interstellar laws were to be made would happen with Sarek of Vulcan speaking on the planet's behalf. The post would naturally be a very powerful and highly-visible one.

And then Sarek of Vulcan goes out a knocks up some Earth girl.

That alone would be a scandal pretty hard for any politician to deal with (Cain, Clinton, Hart, anyone?), but amazingly Sarek wasn't pitched out on his ear. His Vulcan-looking kid is being raised traditionally Vulcan. He's accepted into the most esteemed institution of higher learning on the planet.

And then Spock declines the offer and joins Starfleet.

Again, I'm amazed that a politician could weather such a scandal. I suspect it would be like finding out Vice-President Cheney's daughter is gay. Which she is, so obviously such things can be weathered ...

Actually, the parallel to Mary Cheney is probably apropos. Is Mary Cheney the most accomplished lesbian out there? Nope. Is she particularly noteworthy for anything other than being a conservative Vice-President's lesbian daughter? Nope.

But anyone who finds out that Dick Cheney has a lesbian daughter never, ever forgets it.

In any case, I suspect that it's Spock's backstory that makes him famous in the same way that Mary Cheney has some level of fame.

Actually, with that analogy, it puts a lot more subtext under T'Pring's statement that she did not wish to be the consort of a "legend":

The legend of the half-breed offspring of the Ambassador to the Federation and some cheap Earth girl; who then inexplicably threw away everything; and probably because he's driven by his passions to get some of what his father got.

Some legend.

Are there other famous Vulcans in Starfleet? Probably -- but not the way Spock is famous.

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Old November 9 2011, 06:24 AM   #19
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Also I recall what you mean about there being a list in STONE'S office,.. but to have 3 of 12 Starships at one Starbase at the same time is a bit of a stretch
Well, to be fair, it's vague as to what the actual requirements are for a court-martial of a Starship captain. What we know is this:

To court-martial Spock required three officer of "command rank." Of the three present, Commodore Mendez, Fleet Captain Pike, and Captain Kirk were of "command rank."

I always assumed from context that "command rank" meant of grade Captain or above. Spock was at that time stated to be a Lieutenant Commander (though he wore full Commander's braid). Apparently a Lieutenant Commander (or brevet Commander, or whatever the heck he might have been other than a scriptwriter/costuming error) rates a court-martial with three officers grade Captain or above.

What we saw in Kirk's court-martial was four officers: a Commodore, two Starship captains, and a Space Command Representative (no grade given).

Now, given the age of the two captains, it's a fair bet they were also of grade Captain or above. It becomes confusing in Naval parlance because an officer of almost any grade can be captain of his/her ship. Lieutenant (Junior Grade) John F. Kennedy was captain of PT109.

But these guys are older. I think it's safe to assume we're seeing a Captain or Fleet Captain -- though Commodore isn't an impossibility as we've seen one commanding a Starship.

But if we call them both Captains in grade as well as title:

We've got Stone, C.O. of the base; Lindstrom, unknown grade, a Space Command Representative; and two Captains.

Now, it's stated they're Starship Captains, and in 1966, a Starship meant a ship exactly like the Enterprise. So from appearances, we can say there were two other Constitution-class ships at the base. The Intrepid is there, too, in the background. Then there's the Enterprise herself.

That's four Constitution-class ships at the base. Of a fleet of twelve, that's fully one-third of them. Wow.

The only way you can really resolve it is to use the broader definition of "Starship" as it came to be used in the 1970s: virtually any FTL ship ever seen in Star Trek.

With that definition, there's no reason that our Captains must be captains of ships like the Enterprise. For that matter, perhaps one of them is a Fleet Captain jockeying a desk at the base.

With the broad definition of "Starship," we're back to two Constitution-class ships at the base: the Enterprise and the Intrepid. The former was a totally unexpected visit due to the ion storm.

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Old November 9 2011, 07:06 AM   #20
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

DakotaSmith wrote: View Post
Well, to be honest, I ultimately decided that Spock was the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet -- but for a variety of reasons:

Firstly, he was the son of the planet's Ambassador to the Federation. Theoretically, the Ambassador to the Federation would be the voice of Vulcan at the Federation Council. Whatever interstellar laws were to be made would happen with Sarek of Vulcan speaking on the planet's behalf. The post would naturally be a very powerful and highly-visible one.
If you buy into the apocrypha like Spock's World, they were also descended from Surak's line and effectively a leading family of Vulcan (if you also buy into the idea that T'Pau was a member of their family).

And then Sarek of Vulcan goes out a knocks up some Earth girl.

That alone would be a scandal pretty hard for any politician to deal with (Cain, Clinton, Hart, anyone?), but amazingly Sarek wasn't pitched out on his ear. His Vulcan-looking kid is being raised traditionally Vulcan. He's accepted into the most esteemed institution of higher learning on the planet.
That would imply it was accidental instead of deliberate. Perhaps a sign of these... troubled times today, instead of assuming it followed what would have probably been a controversial marriage, but as Sarek said in the Abrams Trek, 'it would have been logical' as Ambassador to heavily Earth-influenced Federation

Actually, the parallel to Mary Cheney is probably apropos. Is Mary Cheney the most accomplished lesbian out there? Nope. Is she particularly noteworthy for anything other than being a conservative Vice-President's lesbian daughter?
Funny, I must be one of the few who remembers when Cheney was thought of as a moderate when he was in Congress.
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Old November 9 2011, 07:09 AM   #21
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Great points Dakota,... I too often wondered if an all Vulcan ship would, pardon the pun, LOGICALLY have a Vulcan captain,... and yet,... we learn in 'Amok Time', that Spock is the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet,...
Though it's of dubious canon since it was never filmed, the backstory for Xon seems relevant, as well as the canon mention of the Intrepid being an all Vulcan crew and that most of the Vulcans in Starfleet (if not the Federation) were effectively segregated. Spock was unique because when he was with Vulcans, he was identified as human and while he was with humans, he was identified as Vulcan.

Too bad the idea of pure Vulcans being more distinct was abandoned. As was noted recently, Harry Mudd recognized him as part "Vulcanian"....
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Old November 9 2011, 07:21 AM   #22
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

The chart identifies the ships as star ships, and, thus, the majority of the ships of the Enterprise-type were docked at Starbase 11 for repairs and maintenance. It's possible that when the Enterprise visited the starbase, Starfleet was not at war with anyone and Starfleet Command decided to have their capital ships undergo maintenance. I am thinking of Pearl Harbor here where the US Navy decided to berth nearly 50% of its active battleships at Pearl Harbor in the halcyon year of 1941.

I think it was a missed opportunity when the CBS digital team chose not to emulate the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards seen in "Relativity".
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Old November 9 2011, 09:13 AM   #23
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Very interesting theories and viewpoints from everyone. One thing about Trek that is amazing is that they give you enough meat to postulate various scenarios and connections, and yet there are often holes big enough to drive a Starship through, and then sometimes, you get this little glitch which hangs the whole thing up,.. until you start the process again,... Lesbian Vulcan Starship Captains in Go-go boots on the Bridge,... well, I'll say one thing,... it DOES explain a lot LOL!!!

THROWBACk, that is a pretty tidy theory you came up with, and perhaps the ENTERPRISE was not the only ship effected by the same ion storm,... perhaps the storm had been traveling, and the ENTERPRISE was just ONE of many other Starships effected and damaged by it, and that is why they all pulled in for repairs around the same time.

You know it is also interesting what you are saying about Pearl Harbor, as I have heard a 'theory' that the US GOVERNMENT knew about the impending attack, and that is why all those ships were there,.. however the 'theory' goes something along the lines that they let this go down the way it did, to set up a "He hit me first" scenario in the public eye, yet fully intending to engage in the war, but letting the Japanese provide the excuse.
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Old November 9 2011, 12:20 PM   #24
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Lesbian Vulcan Starship Captains in Go-go boots on the Bridge
Totally works for me.

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
You know it is also interesting what you are saying about Pearl Harbor, as I have heard a 'theory' that the US GOVERNMENT knew about the impending attack, and that is why all those ships were there,.. however the 'theory' goes something along the lines that they let this go down the way it did, to set up a "He hit me first" scenario in the public eye, yet fully intending to engage in the war, but letting the Japanese provide the excuse.
The Pearl Harbour Conspiracy Theory has always been popular in certain quarters but, for anyone with a clue, it is ... well, consider.

The theory is that FDR was so desperate to drag the USA into ww2 that he deliberately "sacrificed" the US Pacific Fleet to the Japanese, in order to provoke national outrage. After all, he had already sent a few small US ships "into harms way" in the North Atlantic, causing several incidents with Nazi Germany. There are also the warnings that the USA ignored from just about everybody imaginable. The 'Pearl Harbour Conspiracy Theory' seems plausible, until the facts are considered.

First, FDR's main priority was always the defeat of Nazi Germany. They and Imperial Japan were technically allies, but war with one did not guarantee involvement of the other (as evidenced when Germany kicked things off in 1939). In fact, Germany's declaration of war upon the US, made in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbour, came as a shock to many on BOTH sides.

Secondly, a common misconception seems to be that Pearl Harbour was the only thing Japan did to enter ww2. Wrong! Japanese forces went on the move all over South-East Asia and the Pacific. Attacks were made on the British Commonwealth (Hong Kong, Malaya, Borneo, and numerous islands), on the US-held Philippines, and on US-administered islands such as the Marshalls, Guam, and Wake. Any one of these constituted an act of war and, given Japan's numerous atrocities in China, war would have been hard to avoid.

Thirdly, that all the warnings about an impending attack came to naught is strange, I accept. But, is it truly THAT strange? The warnings filtered through several different US government departments, most of which barely knew each other existed and seldom exchanged data in any case. FBI boss J Edgar Hoover was the recipient of at least one direct warning from the British, but chose to see it as a personal insult rather than take any action.

Many in the West genuinely believed that the typical Japanese soldier was five foot tall, severely near-sighted, afraid of the dark, lacked combat ability, and used inferior ships and planes. General Douglas Macarthur talked of "setting the bamboo cities of Japan ablaze" with the (twelve) B-17 bombers he had in the Philippines. Hardly the mindsets to take warnings of a Japanese attack seriously.

So, the main allegation is that FDR sacrificed a fleet of obsolescent battleships (plus crews), but took special care to move the essential aircraft carriers out of danger. This notion totally ignores the strategic naval thinking of the time. Staunch carrier advocates existed on both sides, but most were relatively junior and all were regarded as at least slightly loony. The top brass in the RN, the USN, and the IJN still regarded battleships as all-important - and aircraft carriers as a very experimental adjunct to the hallowed Line Of Battle. This was despite the notable early successes of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (at Taranto and versus the Bismarck) - noting also that Taranto was the inspiration for the Pearl Harbour attack.

Understand that the Pearl Harbour attack was seen by the Japanese as a major gamble, and the final results a "best case scenario". True, Kido Butai (the Japanese carrier force) could have done better by following up and destroying port facilities and/or a US carrier or two. But such a move would have greatly compounded the risk of counterattack from US forces. Given the initial (and seemingly overwhelming) success, and that the fleet was at the very limits of its logistical support, Admiral Nagumo (rightly or wrongly) chose discretion by ordering the withdrawal as originally planned.

They had sunk / crippled the USN's entire Pacific battleship force. Major Win. Couldn't find the carriers? Annoying, but maybe next time. After all, those Yankee carriers had no battleships to protect them from now on.

That any semi-competent leader would begin a war by throwing away his primary means of attack and defence, just to satisfy a vague need to claim provocation, is simply insane. Whatever his faults, FDR was a very shrewd and pragmatic man. If he suspected that the Japanese were about to attack Hawaii, then I have no doubt that the US would have been ready and waiting for them.

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Old November 9 2011, 03:51 PM   #25
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

You mentioned that you hated Commodore Stone (Court Martial). I don't see why. He seemed to be a squared away symbol of Starfleet authority, and I don't see how, from the video evidence, he could have drawn any other conclusion than that Kirk was guilty. He even offers Kirk a way out. Seems like a decent guy to me.
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Old November 9 2011, 06:33 PM   #26
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Hey there SISKO,

I am glad you asked about Commodore STONE. You are correct on his overall 'appearance', and yes, under normal circumstances, he must be an outstanding Officer, however,...

What STONE is actually offering KIRK is "the blind eye - no scandals" routine. STONE is not interested in THE TRUTH, and in point-of-fact, he is very motivated to not to even have the TRUTH examined for fear it might tarnish the illusion he and his cronies cling to.

Furthermore, he is asking KIRK to become a part of that illusion; not just at the cost of his career and reputation, but to embrace these corrupt morals.

Then to make matters worse, when KIRK resists his 'kind suggestion' - which is making a deal with the Devil - STONE uses (abuses, really) and wields his full scope of powers and authority-not to bring TRUTH to light-but to cover it up, and send KIRK out on the rails, as it were.

AND WHAT IF the tapes were correct and KIRK was truly negligent in FINNEY's death,... how would KIRK taking the 'Masonic Handshake' deal offered him, as a "Desk Assignment, with no scandals" PROVIDE FOR JUSTICE FOR FINNEY???

STONE is corrupt to the core, and dangerous to boot, as he has all the power and authority to act in corrupt self-interest at the expense of the individual human.

So when you draw the analogy to modern-day political/social/religious scandals, and how the "old boy network" covers for each other at the expense of TRUTH and JUSTICE, and they will to actively abuse their positions of authority and destroy others who threaten their corrupt infra-structure or in STONE'S own words: "Tarnish the reputation of Starfleet",...

When the fact is, what STONE is offering KIRK and how he handles the whole thing is more 'tarnishing' than anything.

Bottom line, STONE is simply a corrupt bureaucrat in the guise of a sterling Officer, and that is why I 'double hate' him.

Weee,... glad I got that off my chest LOL!

Thanks for asking Sisko.
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Old November 9 2011, 07:40 PM   #27
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Not sure that Spock was "the most famous Vulcan in Starfleet"

Amok Time wrote:
T'PRING: You have become much known among our people, Spock. Almost a legend. And as the years went by, I came to know that I did not want to be the consort of a legend.
He does seem to have a following of some kind on Vulcan, though.
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Old November 10 2011, 01:12 AM   #28
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

SISKO,... LOL!! you got me all wound up over Commodore STONE LOL!!!,... I am still ripping on this guy!!!! See, I told you I hated him! LOL! Which is REALLY tough for me, as this one of my favorite episodes! LOL!

Here is the thing, IF STONE were truly honorable as he tries to play, the script should have gone down along these lines:

STONE: Look Jim, I don't doubt your word, but the record tape clearly shows something entirely different than your deposition.

KIRK: But that is not what happened,.. I had no grudge against Finney,... He was my friend.

STONE: I understand you feel that way;... perhaps it's fatigue, you've been through hell,... out in deep space for a long time,... but as a Starfleet Flag Officer I am duty-bound to investigate, first and foremost,... no exceptions. I am sorry Jim.

So it is exactly at the next moment when STONE 'offers the blind eye - sweep it under the rug - Masonic handshake' deal to KIRK, that is when he becomes a Villain, just another corrupt official usurping the system of Justice, "for the good of the image of the service",.. murder?,... what murder?

The problem with doing it the way I have it scripted, is that there would then be NO CONFLICT of STONE vs. KIRK,... and therefore less drama, and STONE is not as interesting as a character or plot device.

The way it was done (being the correct way) these two look like they are about to have a fist-fight,.. which is great!, as now their conflict is PERSONAL,.. and STONE looks like he can definitely kick some butt too!

So all in all,... it is superior scripting and charactersation, but my teeth just grind when STONE gets all sleazy with his 'let's make a deal' corruption,... no wonder Kirk want to punch him! LOL!

And think about Finney's daughter, sobbing away,... how do you think she would feel knowing the high-and-mighty Commodore STONE tried to cut a private side-deal with KIRK, knowing full well what he saw on the computer playback,.. and treat her DEAD dear old Dad - who gave his life to the service - as a pile of broom sweepings, so the image of 'The Service" could avoid potential scandal,....

I wonder if Don Mankiewicz was trying to make an allusion for all those families who had to cope with B.S. cover-up letters and High-Ranking Officer 'condolence visits' to their homes regarding the "death of their son in Viet Nam",.. when in fact the son was a POW/MIA captured or wounded in Cambodia,... but so 'The Service' could save face, the facts, and the son, and all the Finneys of the world get swept under the rug too.

And the Generals exchange Masonic handshakes with a 'wink-and-a-nod' at the Officer Club cocktail parties, while all the Finney-widows weep away their days.

AND MAYBE,... that is all I have to say about STONE,... maybe,.... LOL!!!!
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Old November 10 2011, 04:01 AM   #29
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Uxi wrote: View Post
(if you also buy into the idea that T'Pau was a member of their family).
Well, that's at least implied by T'Pau officiating at Spock's wedding.

That would imply it was accidental instead of deliberate. Perhaps a sign of these... troubled times today, instead of assuming it followed what would have probably been a controversial marriage, but as Sarek said in the Abrams Trek, 'it would have been logical' as Ambassador to heavily Earth-influenced Federation
Well, Sarek said in "Journey To Babel" that marrying Amanda "seemed like the logical thing to do."

At my age and marital experience, I've come to assume that it probably was the "logical" thing to do -- if you're the Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation and you've knocked up some Earth girl.

In point of fact, knowing what we do about Vulcan mating habits, it was probably "logical" on a number of levels. Taking into account Star Trek V:

Sarek had an arranged first marriage to an unnamed "Vulcan princess." She died. Now Sarek is faced with a life-or-death problem at his next Ponn Farr.

I figure that he must have been seeing Amanda when his Ponn Farr came around. Sleeping with (and later marrying) her would be logical in order to save his life and then prevent being faced with a life-or-death mating problem in seven years.

Given that Vulcans hate even discussing their biology with anyone, this is one way I can imagine a politician overcoming the whole scandal. It was life-or-death, and Sarek made the logical choice under the circumstances.

Funny, I must be one of the few who remembers when Cheney was thought of as a moderate when he was in Congress.
There's always a difference between what locals think of a politician compared the the country. For example, I think of former Nebraska Governor (and later Senator) Bob Kerry as Debra Winger's ex-boyfriend. That's because growing up in Nebraska, that was Kerry's claim to fame locally. I have no idea what people outside Nebraska think of him -- if they think of him at all. I'm pretty sure they don't think of him as Debra Winger's old boyfriend.

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Old November 10 2011, 04:46 AM   #30
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Re: OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

Dakota LOL!!! You, my friend, are waaaay over-due for shore-leave, first with the Lesbain Vulcan Captains in Go-Go Boots, and now, Debra Winger,.. Debra Winger,... how the heck did we get from Pearl Harbor to Debra Winger ?!!!? LOL!!! Have to say it,.. never would I guess I'd be reading about Debra Winger on Trek board,... strange new worlds, to be sure!! DEBRA WINGER??? LOL!!

Seriously, I just did a read on an old post of yours on GR's responsibility,... amazing read,... as was 7THSEAS Pearl harbor read, so c'mon now, focus,.. LOL!!

I'd really like hear what both you and 7THSEA have to say on Commodore Stone.
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