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Old November 6 2011, 09:08 PM   #241
Cookies and Cake
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Re: TOS Nacelles

^ Yeah, and notice that when I said that was the "right approach" I was also agreeing with the idea that there would still be room for reasonable disagreement on whether the call of something being a mistake is the right one.

And this is exactly why production notes might be important, as they might [if they exist] shed light on why the number changed from 12 to 5.

My guess is that it's just one of the things that fell through the cracks. I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that the Enterprise from the early episodes just ends up existing in a slightly different reality than she was in all later episodes. This is a far more realistic approach than proposing convoluted explanations for all the inconsistencies.

Yeah, it was actually 12. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cons...on_class_decks. TMoST does not mention deck 12.
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Old November 6 2011, 09:18 PM   #242
Crazy Eddie
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Re: TOS Nacelles

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
What about Yeoman Rand's cabin then? (Seems a bit far away for his personal assistant.)
They used to be next door, but Rand caught Kirk phasering peepholes into the walls.


blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I copied this from my earlier notes that I referenced at the beginning of the thread. In the notes below, there is evidence for antimatter in the nacelles and a central reactor. I try to use the least amount of Retcons to tie it all together and borrow heavily from ideas that Tin_Man, Mytran and Albertese have put forth. As always, YMMV

Personal Theory (updated with regeneration theory):

The TOS Enterprise is mainly powered by dilithium crystals that are re-charged by it's matter/antimatter reactor system containing 3 reactor cores. The central M/AM reactor core charges the dilithium crystals which generates ("regenerates") antimatter fuel and simultaneously stores energy to be used to power ship's systems through the energizers. The regenerated AM is pumped to fuel the M/AM engines in the nacelles to generate the space warp. Unused M/AM fuel in the nacelles are stored there in temporary fuel pods and excess fuel is pumped back to the main fuel areas in the engineering hull.

It can be explained that all three reactor cores aren't involved in every episode. In "That Which Survives", Losira's sabotage of the engineering hull's M/AM core was enough to have a runaway ship. In "The Savage Curtain", the "red zone" alert could be something that only can happen in the nacelles since the aliens only needed to target something that was vulnerable.
I still can't get away from the idea that the dilithium crystals don't directly produce any energy themselves and are mainly a sort of highly important "catalyst" component that allows the engines to operate at all. All the references to the crystals being "charged" or "regenerated" either refer to the crystals' main function of producing antimatter (maybe a voltage drop required across the crystal?) or to the antimatter the crystals actually produce.
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Old November 6 2011, 10:06 PM   #243
Timo
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Re: TOS Nacelles

Since on (reduced) battery power they could hang in orbit for 3 days but on less than full crystal power they could only hang in orbit for 10 hours I suspect that there is something different about the planet in "The Alternative Factor" that can pull down the ship faster or requires more power to maintain orbit.
One possibility is that the orbit will decay very slowly in both cases (or even not decay at all if precautions are taken), but that in "Mudd's Women" they discuss the actual crash, while in "The Alternative Factor" they speak of when the orbital decay will start (10 hours), not when it will conclude in a crash (3 days).

And for the record, I wasn't suggesting that author intent should outweigh the revisions that GR and the story editors routinely made on submitted scripts to keep them consistent with the intended vision of the show.
On my part, I wasn't suggesting that author intent is uninteresting in any absolute sense. It's just that I'm personally solely oriented towards analyzing the end result that is Star Trek, the fictional universe that is the result of author effort - and more often than not, said effort is not particularly visible in said end result, nor should it be (for what good is fiction if the seams are showing?). I certainly cannot accept the idea that, after the visible part of the fictional universe is taken in, various invisible elements of author intent should be added merely because they are not contradicted by what we see. This would seriously limit our options in interpreting the fictional universe - just like it would seriously limit the options of people intent on creating new elements into the universe, such as future screenplay writers.

Or alternatively, Kirk's cabin was on Deck 12 in "Mudd's Women" and his yeoman's cabin, Rand's, was also on Deck 12 in "The Enemy Within" suggesting that in the early days Kirk's cabin was on Deck 12 and he didn't relocate to Deck 5 until later.
Which is a good take on continuity, since the mention of Deck 5 was associated with a situation that in the Star Trek universe does involve cabin reshuffling. There was a diplomatic party onboard, and in "Elaan of Troyius" such an occurrence meant a top officer had to swap cabins. "Journey to Babel" just happens to be a hundred times worse than "Elaan of Troyius" for our officers, because there are a hundred times more delegates!

Writer intent would not allow for this sort of thing, as "Babel" precedes "Troyius". But in-universe facts are in harmony here, regardless of and perhaps even against writer intent.

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Old November 6 2011, 11:44 PM   #244
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Nacelles

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
I still can't get away from the idea that the dilithium crystals don't directly produce any energy themselves and are mainly a sort of highly important "catalyst" component that allows the engines to operate at all. All the references to the crystals being "charged" or "regenerated" either refer to the crystals' main function of producing antimatter (maybe a voltage drop required across the crystal?) or to the antimatter the crystals actually produce.
Yeah, I agree.

It is common to "recondition" various devices, and I get the impression that what we see with the dilithium crystals is not "storing energy into them" as much as it's something akin to annealing.

Example (and one which is close to home for me, as I've worked in this field for several years now)... lithium batteries degrade over time, but they can "degrade" excessively fast, by becoming "imbalanced" and you can recondition them to be "mostly like new" again, but not in the field. You have to put them in a specific setup designed to recondition them... involving specific temperatures, and specific charge/discharge cycles, among other things.

On the other hand, there are negative materials changes which occur to many engineering materials through use. One common one is what we call "work-hardening" which can be good, or bad, depending on the situation. You've seen this when you take a piece of flexible metal and just bend it back and forth, repeatedly. It starts out flexible but becomes brittle soon. This is caused by distortion of the metallic grain structure.

To eliminate work-hardening, you put the metal bit through a process called "annealing," which involves heating it up (well below melting temperature) to allow the internal grain structure of the material to recrystalize. New grains form along the high-energy (due to mechanical stress) grain boundaries. Eventually, the old ("high-energy") crystaline grains dissolve and recrystalize completely.

I see the process to which dilithium crystals are treated to be, from a materials/chemistry basis, very much akin to annealing... a necessary periodic process required to prevent the crystals from failing. Once "re-energized" they'd be able to process and produce useable energy again, but they'd eventually be overworked and would fracture, rendering them useless.

But this process is FUNCTIONALLY quite a bit more like what we do with lithium-ion battery systems... rather than just sitting in an oven like is done for annealing.
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Old November 7 2011, 12:26 AM   #245
Timo
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Re: TOS Nacelles

One fun idea on how TOS dilithium might get "reamplified" or "reenergized":

Note how unlike the paddles of "Alternative Factor" are from the crystal lumps of "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius"? Perhaps dilithium in the TOS era is so rare that the lumps are virtually never available, or tend to be so full of faults that only small parts of them serve any practical purpose. So for the most part, Starfleet uses arrays of very small dilithium shards or microcrystals, embedded in those ping-pong paddles; the arrays need to be aligned in a specific way to best mimic the effect of a single, paddle-sized crystal. Yet the microcrystals easily lose their alignment, and energy has to be inserted to restore it, lest the amplifying function of the array alignment be lost and a mere useless collection of dilithium shards be left.

A natural crystal behaves differently: you don't get much effect on one of those with an energizer, but you can tilt a natural crystal to find a good, unused facet. It's a demanding process even for Scotty, as shown by "Elaan", but it can be done. It's still demanding in TNG "Skin of Evil", but by that time, in situ recrystallizing can correct the faults that develop in a natural crystal, reducing the need for facet adjustment and prolonging the life of a crystal.

With the main energizer out in ST2, Spock's only option would be to find a good facet out of the strained dilithium in the reactor; he'd access it via a dumbwaiter system similar to the TOS one, manually tilt it to the required position, and reinsert...

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Old November 7 2011, 12:38 AM   #246
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Nacelles

Timo wrote: View Post
Since on (reduced) battery power they could hang in orbit for 3 days but on less than full crystal power they could only hang in orbit for 10 hours I suspect that there is something different about the planet in "The Alternative Factor" that can pull down the ship faster or requires more power to maintain orbit.
One possibility is that the orbit will decay very slowly in both cases (or even not decay at all if precautions are taken), but that in "Mudd's Women" they discuss the actual crash, while in "The Alternative Factor" they speak of when the orbital decay will start (10 hours), not when it will conclude in a crash (3 days).

And for the record, I wasn't suggesting that author intent should outweigh the revisions that GR and the story editors routinely made on submitted scripts to keep them consistent with the intended vision of the show.
On my part, I wasn't suggesting that author intent is uninteresting in any absolute sense. It's just that I'm personally solely oriented towards analyzing the end result that is Star Trek, the fictional universe that is the result of author effort - and more often than not, said effort is not particularly visible in said end result, nor should it be (for what good is fiction if the seams are showing?). I certainly cannot accept the idea that, after the visible part of the fictional universe is taken in, various invisible elements of author intent should be added merely because they are not contradicted by what we see. This would seriously limit our options in interpreting the fictional universe - just like it would seriously limit the options of people intent on creating new elements into the universe, such as future screenplay writers.

Or alternatively, Kirk's cabin was on Deck 12 in "Mudd's Women" and his yeoman's cabin, Rand's, was also on Deck 12 in "The Enemy Within" suggesting that in the early days Kirk's cabin was on Deck 12 and he didn't relocate to Deck 5 until later.
Which is a good take on continuity, since the mention of Deck 5 was associated with a situation that in the Star Trek universe does involve cabin reshuffling. There was a diplomatic party onboard, and in "Elaan of Troyius" such an occurrence meant a top officer had to swap cabins. "Journey to Babel" just happens to be a hundred times worse than "Elaan of Troyius" for our officers, because there are a hundred times more delegates!

Writer intent would not allow for this sort of thing, as "Babel" precedes "Troyius". But in-universe facts are in harmony here, regardless of and perhaps even against writer intent.

Timo Saloniemi
How about maybe somebody did a little checking and noticed that Deck 12 is right smack dab in the middle of the neck, which is a rather silly place to put the captain's cabin?

Or, probably more likely, maybe a fan wrote to them asking why Kirk's cabin was in the neck when it would make a lot more sense to move it up in the saucer, like say Deck 5.
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Old November 7 2011, 01:15 AM   #247
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Re: TOS Nacelles

^^Yeah, I basically agree. It's fair to say that at the time the deck 12 reference was used, it was not technically a "mistake" as at the time TPTB had not worked any of this out, but by the second season they had pinned things down a bit better and deck 5 was chosen as a logical location, making the deck 12 location obsolete?
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Old November 7 2011, 01:24 AM   #248
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Nacelles

A relocation makes far more sense from an in-universe POV
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Old November 7 2011, 01:41 AM   #249
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Re: TOS Nacelles

^^Agreed.
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Old November 7 2011, 04:25 AM   #250
Captain Robert April
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Re: TOS Nacelles

In universe, I'd rather chalk it up to a change in nomenclature, i.e., the room never moved, only what they called the deck it was on.

As for how the fifth level down came to be called "deck twelve", I'll leave others to figure out.
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Old November 7 2011, 04:30 AM   #251
Cookies and Cake
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Re: TOS Nacelles

Counting up from the bottom, relative to--something?

The idea that the deck got renumbered makes more sense in universe than Kirk's quarters moving, in the same way that a 2% likelihood is twice as likely as a 1% likelihood, but not really much sense either, as both ideas are really unlikely.

This isn't anything we're going to agree on, probably, but it is a good example of the sort of problem we face on topic.

Now, back to nacelles.....
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Old November 7 2011, 12:40 PM   #252
Timo
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Re: TOS Nacelles

Counting up from the bottom, relative to--something?
As late as "Day of the Dove", it seems that some writers counted from bottom to top. Kirk and pals hold the bridge of the ship, and supposedly the other top decks as well - "All sections above". Klingons in turn are said to be holding Deck 6 and half of Deck 7 - and it would make rather limited sense for the Klingons and the heroes to be contesting a deck that's below a totally Klingon-controlled deck!

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Old November 7 2011, 02:12 PM   #253
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Re: TOS Nacelles

And let's not forget the very loooooooooooong turbolift ride from the bridge to Deck 2 at the end of The Enterprise Incident.
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Old November 7 2011, 04:20 PM   #254
Timo
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Re: TOS Nacelles

To be fair, there was no turbolift "ride" as such. There was merely a long scene inside a turbolift - without any visual or auditory indication that the lift was moving. Basically a repeat of the Kirk/Saavik scene of ST2, then...

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Old November 7 2011, 10:01 PM   #255
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Re: TOS Nacelles

Timo wrote: View Post
Counting up from the bottom, relative to--something?
As late as "Day of the Dove", it seems that some writers counted from bottom to top. Kirk and pals hold the bridge of the ship, and supposedly the other top decks as well - "All sections above". Klingons in turn are said to be holding Deck 6 and half of Deck 7 - and it would make rather limited sense for the Klingons and the heroes to be contesting a deck that's below a totally Klingon-controlled deck!
Timo Saloniemi
However, 90% of the crew were sealed off "below decks" as well. If the Klingons occupied the lower parts of the ship and Kirk's gang all levels above, where on earth were the missing crew?
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