Captain America: The First Avenger-Review, Discuss, Grade, Sequel, DVD

[CaptainCanada]

23skidoo wrote:

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- I was a little less enthused about the violence - I'm in the "superheroes don't kill" camp and am still upset over what David Kelley had Wonder Woman doing in the busted pilot earlier this year - but at the same time this is actually consistent with the early days of Captain America. All those comic book issues in which Cap was indeed shown fighting Nazis in the 1940s, he wasn't using harsh language.

I'm the reverse. One of the things I like the most about Marvel Studios' films is that none of the heroes moan about how heroes should never kill anyone (only for their enemies to conveniently end up dead anyway in many instances). Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Cap all use lethal force without any nonsensical moral dilemmas (the idea of a soldier in World War II not killing people is not only absurd, it's rather an insult to all the other soldiers who Cap is meant to be a symbol of).

[captcalhoun]

boy, skiddoo must hate Ultimate Cap then, he regularly guns enemies down...

[Alidar Jarok]

CaptainCanada wrote:

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I'm the reverse. One of the things I like the most about Marvel Studios' films is that none of the heroes moan about how heroes should never kill anyone (only for their enemies to conveniently end up dead anyway in many instances). Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Cap all use lethal force without any nonsensical moral dilemmas (the idea of a soldier in World War II not killing people is not only absurd, it's rather an insult to all the other soldiers who Cap is meant to be a symbol of).

Although he did say he disliked guns and killing.

[Anwar]

Well, Movie Cap said that he didn't WANT to kill anyone, but as a soldier he knows what his duty is to attack and the kill the enemy.

Which is a good mindset, I'd say. Even the supreme "Thou Shall Not Kill" follower (Batman) wouldn't have any problems with Captain America having a kill record.

After all, he IS a soldier in a war.

[Trekker4747]

But isn't Batman? I mean would Gotham, and the world, really be worse off if The Joker were dead? How many times has The Joker killed or put countless lives at risk? If it came down to it would Batman kill The Joker in "self-defense" or in the defense of others?

[Anwar]

Batman is an illegal vigilante, who is in fact a private citizen and not a commissioned officer in the armed services. Killing he does would not be sanctioned the way he keeps things between him and Gordon.

Cap is a commissioned officer, a government agent. He's fully legitimized to kill by the government, if he thinks it has to come to that.

[Samurai8472]

There's one thing I can't shake when watching this movie

Montage,Montage,Montage


I would have liked to have seen a few more of Captain America and the howling commando's,dum dum dugan and the rest of the gang.

[Trekker4747]

Anwar wrote:

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Batman is an illegal vigilante, who is in fact a private citizen and not a commissioned officer in the armed services. Killing he does would not be sanctioned the way he keeps things between him and Gordon.

Cap is a commissioned officer, a government agent. He's fully legitimized to kill by the government, if he thinks it has to come to that.

But, if Batman where in a situation where it was his life (or the life of an innocent) or the life of The Joker he would be legally justified in killing The Joker. If someone breaks into my home and I feel my life is threatened I'd be justified in killing the intruder (up until the point he flees.)

How many times has Batman been in a situation where The Joker was threatening the life of an innocent Gothinian (or whatever) and instead of taking the Joker out Batman simply does something to knock The Joker out or cause a distraction to allow him to save the innocent person? Now, sure, the innocent person may have survived so all is good but more often than not The Joker -sooner or later- will be back out there causing crime and the next innocent person to be in The Joker's hands might not be so lucky.

Batman killing The Joker in a situation where The Joker's threatening life or property would be a justifiable homicide. I'm not a police officer, or a soldier but if I kill a man who is threatening lives then little action would be taken against me, at least legally; civilly is another matter.

I argue that Batman would be justified if he killed The Joker (in certain circumstances, Batman can't just go up to The Joker and kill him anytime he wants) and it could probably be argued that Gordon's treatment of Batman suggests that Batman is, at last informally, is "deputized" to act as law enforcement in some capacity.

[CorporalCaptain]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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Batman killing The Joker in a situation where The Joker's threatening life or property would be a justifiable homicide.

In The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller agreed it had finally come to that, not necessarily legally but at least in Batman's mind.

[Trekker4747]

Heck, in The Dark Knight Harvey Dent/Two Face is killed in just that sort of situation. To Gordon and any reasonable person it was a justified killing. It was just covered up to save Dent's reputation.

Now, in Begins the killing of Ras isn't as justified as it was pretty much murder by negligence or failure to act (sort of something like a "Good Samaritan Law.") At the point Ras was killed he wasn't a threat and Batman could have saved him and delivered him to Gordon/the authorities.

But the killing of Dent was certainly a justifiable act.

[CorporalCaptain]

In the film, Dent's killing was spur of the moment, arguably accidental and not premeditated, and lives were in immediate jeopardy.

On the other hand, in Miller's comic, Batman decides to do it, and then pursues the Joker with premeditated intent to kill him, after having had enough of witnessing the Joker kill people. I believe this is actually a substantially different situation.

[Skywalker]

Take this Batman crap to the TDKR thread or something.

[CorporalCaptain]

Aye, aye!

[Broccoli]

How about this:


or this:

[CorporalCaptain]

Where did you get those? They are both real?

I found the first one: http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Captain.../dp/156389291X.