RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,713
Posts: 5,432,076
Members: 24,835
Currently online: 592
Newest member: SB118_T'Mar


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 29 2011, 12:58 AM   #16
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Boo-khat wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure the Botany Bay was not on Ceti Alpha V. If it was, don't you think everyone would be living in it instead of some small cargo containers?
Depends on how much of the ship Kirk let 'em keep. He'd probably strip the hull of engines and communications tech. Figure they get to keep any personal effects that wouldn't help them arrange a rescue. So most likely any parts of the Botany would be limited to a few bits and pieces here and there with the rest of the bulk burned up in the planet's atmo or torpedoed. In the end there would probably be next to nothing of the ship left.

Last edited by SeerSGB; October 29 2011 at 07:22 AM.
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29 2011, 07:36 PM   #17
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

As for a reason to go grab the Botany Bay: Brig. Having Khan on board is risky, he nearly took the ship and killed Kirk. He swings back, grabs the Botany, beams Khan and co over to the ship (after knocking out the engines) and impulse tows the ship back to Ceti Alpha V.
OTOH, depending on the astrography of the situation, going back for the Botany Bay might merely add to the time Kirk has to keep Khan and his eighty-something cohorts in the brigs of the Enterprise!

Generally speaking, giving a power-hungry villain his own hardware back is not a smart move. It's a bit like capturing a Klingon assassin and deciding his convict coveralls and cuffs aren't secure enough - and putting him back in his old clothes after removing the holster for the obvious sidearm. There's bound to be at least seventeen concealed weapons there!

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29 2011, 08:57 PM   #18
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Timo wrote: View Post
As for a reason to go grab the Botany Bay: Brig. Having Khan on board is risky, he nearly took the ship and killed Kirk. He swings back, grabs the Botany, beams Khan and co over to the ship (after knocking out the engines) and impulse tows the ship back to Ceti Alpha V.
OTOH, depending on the astrography of the situation, going back for the Botany Bay might merely add to the time Kirk has to keep Khan and his eighty-something cohorts in the brigs of the Enterprise!

Generally speaking, giving a power-hungry villain his own hardware back is not a smart move. It's a bit like capturing a Klingon assassin and deciding his convict coveralls and cuffs aren't secure enough - and putting him back in his old clothes after removing the holster for the obvious sidearm. There's bound to be at least seventeen concealed weapons there!

Timo Saloniemi
This is true. But I didn't get the impression that the Botany was much more than a cargo ship, not much of a threat. If nothing else, there was probably equipment or surplus that they could scavenge to keep from depleting the Enterprise's stores.
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2011, 03:31 AM   #19
DrBashir
Commander
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Botany Bay must have had some sort of supplies onboard. Even Khan would need materials to build a home on a new planet. He just got supplemented by the Enterprise. Cargo carriers instead of tents, etc.

I'd imagine that only Starfleet personnel went back aboard the Botany Bay and everything was throughly checked before it was sent down to Ceti Alpha V. The rest of the ship was probably towed to a Starfleet facility and the historians went over it with a fine toothed comb. It's probably in a museum now that Khan and his followers are dead.
DrBashir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2011, 07:07 PM   #20
jayrath
Fleet Captain
 
Location: West Hollywood, Calif., USA
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

SpookingDaniel wrote: View Post
IIRC, Mike Okuda didn't have a thing to do with STII. And more to the point, why would they go back to the Bontany Bay and fit the seatbelts/cargo straps from that ship to an Enterprise cargo container?

The Botany Bay was designed with detachable cargo modules. I always assumed it was one of them.
Agreed. Strongly.
jayrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2011, 08:55 PM   #21
The Dominion
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Gamma Quadrant
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

They look a lot like the cargo structures the Botany Bay had. So I'm pretty sure that's what they probably are.
__________________
A witty saying proves nothing. ~ Voltaire
The Dominion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2011, 09:32 PM   #22
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Hmh? The ribbing, the curvature and the way they sit on the ground comes straight from ST:TMP - while the Botany Bay containers (or fuel tanks?) were angular but smooth things of seemingly much, much greater size. That is, if Khan's original sleeping stations were inside one of those containers, they'd be at least four times the size of the ones he lived in on Ceti Alpha V. And if Khan's sleeping stations were inside the pencil-like hull of the ship instead, then the containers would be absolutely huge in comparison.

Botany Bay must have had some sort of supplies onboard. Even Khan would need materials to build a home on a new planet.
Assuming he ever wanted such a thing.

For all we know, he just wanted to get away from Earth for a period of time, then effect a triumphant return. His plan all along might have been to sleep in a ship that would send a signal assured to lure in fellow Earth vessels, hopefully after Earth had forgotten about Khan... Or then simply to loop back, and the signal was an error that caused Kirk to locate Khan and force him to switch to Plan B.

The rest of the ship was probably towed to a Starfleet facility and the historians went over it with a fine toothed comb.
Doesn't jibe well with the idea that Kirk kept Khan's existence secret from basically everybody, or at least from his Starfleet employers.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2011, 03:24 AM   #23
DrBashir
Commander
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

One hand of Starfleet may not know what the other one is doing, particularly if Starfleet Intelligence is involved.
DrBashir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2011, 03:27 AM   #24
DrBashir
Commander
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

The Blob wrote: View Post
They look a lot like the cargo structures the Botany Bay had. So I'm pretty sure that's what they probably are.
Terrell recognized them as cargo carriers and you can see "Starfleet" stencilled inside them in some scenes. Khan also says that Kirk left him with only the contents of his cargo bays.

They're from the Enterprise.
DrBashir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2011, 01:52 PM   #25
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

To nitpick, I can only see "STARFLEET" stenciled on that door slab in the eels-to-ears scene - and the door slab doesn't appear to be part of the containers themselves, but a later addition by Khan.

Are there other instances of the word appearing on the containers?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2011, 10:41 PM   #26
Basill
Captain
 
Basill's Avatar
 
Location: TN
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Timo wrote: View Post
To nitpick, I can only see "STARFLEET" stenciled on that door slab in the eels-to-ears scene - and the door slab doesn't appear to be part of the containers themselves, but a later addition by Khan.

Are there other instances of the word appearing on the containers?

Timo Saloniemi
I don't remember any, but can anyone tell if the stencil for "STARFLEET" is the same as "LOADING CAPACITY" visible on the actual interior of the bay's structure? It's minimal evidence, but could that be a connection? It might lend further Starfleet credence.

It's seems pretty obvious, even from that tiny image, that the "cargo carriers" were Starfleet. To go to the trouble of duplicating those Motion Picture cargo pods to the degree they did, it seems their intention is apparent. It's especially apparent if they are at a different scale, which would require all new builds rather than reusing or retconning previous set/prop constructs. TWOK had tons of that. I didn't even think that workbee rig with the cargo clamps ever had anything but a filming miniature made of it. So unless something got built that never got filmed in TMP, that was an all new build attempting to mimic a previously visualized design element.
__________________
"As they say, life is what happens to you while you're making other plans." -Art Linkletter

Visit my Trek Art blog at: http://starstation.wordpress.com/

Last edited by Basill; November 1 2011 at 12:51 AM.
Basill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1 2011, 12:30 AM   #27
MrJ
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Canada
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

Boo-khat wrote: View Post
Mike Okuda specifically stated that they were cargo containers from the Enterprise. They were just filled with the Botany Bay's stuff.
SpookingDaniel wrote: View Post
IIRC, Mike Okuda didn't have a thing to do with STII.

Mike Okuda also said that the red Enlisted personnel jumpsuits worn by NCO's in Star Trek II through VI were Cadet uniforms and the people wearing them were cadets. Despite the fact that Yeomen Burke and Samnoe wore them in ST VI. And the fact that cadets wore the same officer jackets that the officers wore except their undershirts were red, instead of the department colours worn by commissioned officers. So I'd take whatever Okuda says about ST II with a grain of salt.
 
Also, I always thought that the Cargo containers were from the Enterprise, but the Botany Bay was also sent down to the surface but dismantled for supplies for Khan and his followers to build permanent shelters. It's just we never saw what was left of the Botany Bay, either because it was obscured by the sand and dust, or the Enterprise cargo containers were the only thing to survive the devastation caused by the explosion of Ceti Alpha Six.
MrJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1 2011, 05:15 PM   #28
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

jayrath wrote: View Post
SpookingDaniel wrote: View Post
IIRC, Mike Okuda didn't have a thing to do with STII. And more to the point, why would they go back to the Bontany Bay and fit the seatbelts/cargo straps from that ship to an Enterprise cargo container?

The Botany Bay was designed with detachable cargo modules. I always assumed it was one of them.
Agreed. Strongly.
My photo proves otherwise.

MrJ wrote: View Post
So I'd take whatever Okuda says about ST II with a grain of salt.
Mike isn't perfect, but I'd rather take what he has to say at face value instead of the opinions of some person on an internet bulletin board who has no past experience in a ST production.
 
Also, I always thought that the Cargo containers were from the Enterprise, but the Botany Bay was also sent down to the surface but dismantled for supplies for Khan and his followers to build permanent shelters. It's just we never saw what was left of the Botany Bay, either because it was obscured by the sand and dust, or the Enterprise cargo containers were the only thing to survive the devastation caused by the explosion of Ceti Alpha Six.
Um, do you have any canon proof whatsoever about this, or is this just your opinion?
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 02:31 AM   #29
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

*Update*

I was at my local public library today and happened to stumble across Nicholas Meyer's book "The View from the Bridge," about his work on the Trek films. In the photo section, lo and behold, was the picture I'd been looking for!



When compared to this small model from TMP, you can clearly see that it's exactly the same, even right down to the cradle where the workbee would have been:



The fourth cargo pod has mostly sunk into the sand, but it's there. You can even see two of the old-style UFP logos on the sides of the containers. So now we have irrefutable proof that they were not in fact from the Botany Bay.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21 2011, 10:27 AM   #30
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: How big were TWOK's "cargo bays" Khan spoke of?

...Also proven is that the TMP style gear was in use in the mid-2260s already.

Unless we speculate that Kirk revisited Khan several years after "Space Seed", and donated him some brand new containers. This would explain away the "fifteen years" references.

Is that a fifth (and thus presumably also sixth?) container buried at the extreme right, or just the detached grapple of container #4?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.