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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 26 2011, 02:46 AM   #121
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I always thought there were at least four good scenes from Q-Less, the two TheGodBen pointed out, the one where Q asks O'Brien if he was one of little people on the Enterprise and the one where Q messes with Quark by bidding on the auction.

Still, they're certainly not enough to save the episode.
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Old October 26 2011, 05:29 PM   #122
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
I liked Babel better than you did (or didn't dislike it as much as you did). The plot was thin but the character interaction saved it for me, and I found it interesting that, contrary to what you'd expect after seeing Emissary, the main villains in the next 3 episodes were all Bajorans: a nationalist extremist/terrorist, a black market criminal and a prejudiced lynch mob, and an unethical scientist who also turned out to be a selfish prick. (Of course, I loved the way Kira forced him to help.)
Good point, I hadn't considered that. Making the Bajorans the villains as well as the heroes did somewhat subvert the set-up in Emissary, and it's something that stayed with the show right up to the end with Kai Winn. As well as that, Garak did aid the heroes in the second episode, contrary to what you'd expect from a Cardassian. (Although his his loyalties did remain ambiguous for some time after that.)


Dax (**)

In some ways, this is a vital episode of the show, but it's not an episode that holds up to repeated viewing. It's clearly based on the desire to explore the nature of the Trill and how the host/symbiont relationship works, and that something that DS9 needed to explain, especially since these Trill appear to be different from the ones shown in TNG. But that's the episode's weakness because most of the episode is centred on people explaining stuff that I already know. It's possibly the most realistic interpretation of a court proceeding that I've ever seen as it involves people repeating the same points over and over again with nothing dramatic happening.

Well, one dramatic thing happens at the end, the revelation that Curzon was having an affair with the wife of the man he is alleged to have murdered. I was going to say that this is a get-out-of-jail-free card, but I guess Dax having an affair with a married woman is a stain on the character. Still, it leaves the case unresolved and we never get closure on whether Jadzia should be responsible for any crimes committed by the Dax symbiont. In fact, it's difficult to buy into the notion that there's no precedent in Trill laws or customs as to whether the joining of host and symbiont creates a new person. Even if this is a new area for Bajoran law, surely they would lean heavily towards what Trill or Federation law has to say on the issue. Sisko tells Kira to look into this angle of the case, but it seems that Kira just forgets and it's not brought up in the rest of the episode.

Ultimately, this is an interesting concept for an episode that doesn't quite follow-through, and it gets quite dull if you've seen it before. That being said, there's two interesting things in this episode from the perspective of someone that has seen the whole show. The first is that the Dax symbiont was involved in murdering someone when it was joined with Joran, so it's not hard to imagine that Curzon may have had similar impulses on some level. Secondly, the episode ends with Curzon's ex-lover telling Jadzia to live a long life, followed by a long shot of Jadzia to finish the episode. My initial instinct was to chuckle, but the shot of Jadzia standing there smiling was almost tragic.
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Old October 26 2011, 05:42 PM   #123
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It does appear to be a new case for Bajoran law; otherwise, why would they go to all the trouble of kidnapping Dax off the station instead of going through the perfectly legal channels that they had at their disposal from the Federation?

I'll give this episode credit for fleshing out the nature of the Trill, especially since they changed SO much from the TNG version of the species. But, the episode really needed some energy. It just drags, almost to a standstill in places.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
the shot of Jadzia standing there smiling was almost tragic.
Meh, only if you like Jadzia.

I kid, I kid. I don't hate her that much.
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Old October 26 2011, 09:55 PM   #124
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Secondly, the episode ends with Curzon's ex-lover telling Jadzia to live a long life, followed by a long shot of Jadzia to finish the episode. My initial instinct was to chuckle, but the shot of Jadzia standing there smiling was almost tragic.
As a fan of Tragic Foreshadow (100% unintentional though it may have been), I find myself enjoying this episode quite a bit just for that one scene.
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Old October 27 2011, 09:29 AM   #125
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I thought Dax was alright, maybe 2.5 to 3 stars. Maybe it depends on how much you liked Jadzia as a character? I know she's not loved around here. Me and my friend loved her when we were younger, as we enjoyed the concept of the worm in her belly, and those crazy spots on her. These days I can tell that she was maybe the weakest link in the cast, but I still like her somewhat.

Season one is definitely where she was a bit dull, so this episode goes to some lengths to explain just what her deal was. I enjoyed how stubbourn she was in not saying anything because of what happened with Curzon and the wife. It's was somewhat honourable. I agree that Curzon killing someone would have been a better hook, but I suppose we got Joran further down the line.

I understand your point of the episode repeating things that we know now over and over again. I still see it as a brighter spot in the first season, which isn't hard really at this point.
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Old October 27 2011, 12:25 PM   #126
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Severed Fingers wrote: View Post
Maybe it depends on how much you liked Jadzia as a character? I know she's not loved around here.
Really? With the exception of this thread, I'm almost always attacked for criticizing her.

I've been called a sexist, accused of being against womens' empowerment and accused of only liking women to be submissive just for saying that I don't care for her character.
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Old October 27 2011, 02:33 PM   #127
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm almost through Season Three right now and I think Jadzia's kinda boring. She's probably my least favorite character out of the regulars (not including Jake, who isn't around nearly as often as the others).
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Old October 27 2011, 04:59 PM   #128
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The end of Season Three is where my thoughts on the character really came into focus. Up until then I too found her mostly boring, but something always bugged me about her. After a certain episode, my thoughts became clear, at least to me.

I'll wait until TheGodBen gets to that episode to say what helped me realize my dislike for Jadiza.
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Old October 27 2011, 05:03 PM   #129
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

If pushed on the issue then I'd say that Jadzia was probably my least favourite of the main characters, but I still kind of like her.


The Passenger (*)

In my time as a TV viewer, I have seen many horrific things. I've seen a man poison his wife and son before shooting his brains out. I've seen a body, semi-dissolved in acid, come crashing through a ceiling. I've seen a woman floating in space, shooting laser-beams from her hands and feet while screaming her head off. But none of those things can prepare yourself for the horror of Sidig el Fadil playing Rao Vantika. It's the sort of thing that nightmares are made of. I can't quite get my head around what happened there, he has played Dr Bashir quite well up until now, finding that grey area between being obnoxious and strangely likeable. But that Vantika scene is just plain bad, not just the stilted voice and weird facial expressions, but also his reaction to being shocked by the <tech>.

As a story, it's straight-up TNG, so this gets a point deducted for that. The story itself isn't that bad, and handled differently it could have been a good episode, but as is it's rather humdrum with a terrible finish. There's also the fact that the episode raises interesting issues that don't get developed in a satisfactory way. The ability to download your brain into an SD card is raised, but not really addressed. The episode ends with Kajada vaporising the hard drive containing Vantika's brain, which is arguably murder (or execution without trial). That's not addressed. The Kobliad are dying out without the magical deuridium. That's not really addressed. Quark aides Vantika in his crime. That's not addressed.

The best thing about this episode is the conflict between Odo and Primmin and how Odo feels his authority is threatened. Primmin isn't a particularly interesting character, but he doesn't seem like a bad guy and apologises once he realises he was out of line. He's also a competent officer, preventing Vantika's plot to disable the station when Odo missed it. He may have been a valuable recurring character if he had stayed around for more than two episodes, but he's also not a great loss.
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Old October 27 2011, 05:17 PM   #130
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I've seen a woman floating in space, shooting laser-beams from her hands and feet while screaming her head off.
I'm still thankful I skipped that.

As for el Fadil - yeah, I can't get my head around why he's so awful in this episode either. It's true that he has played Bashir fairly well up until now and of course he'll only get better at it as the series progress. But whenever he plays someone who is not Bashir, he tends to falter. He has the same problem, IMO, with Mirror Bashir, though that performance is certainly no where near as bad as this one. I've seen him in other works as well, and he often seems a little off. Maybe he was just able to completely lose himself in the Bashir character and thereby deliver a good performance, but anything outside of that character is more difficult for him.

I have the same opinion about Jolene Blalock. I thought she nailed the role of T'Pol perfectly. However, anything else I've ever seen her in has been dreadful. Maybe Bashir and T'Pol just happened to be tailor made for these two actors.

As for Primmin - while not a great addition, I am pleased that he's essentially an "outsider" character coming into the realm of the main cast and yet isn't corrupt or thoroughly incompetent.
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Old October 27 2011, 07:04 PM   #131
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think Siddig was just learning his craft early in the series, and when asked to stretch like this he couldn't do it. I've seen him in a number of things since the show ended (Syriana, Spooks, 24, etc.) and he's always been terrific. He might have the best post-DS9 career of any of the actors, actually, other than Colm Meaney (who already had a movie career while the series was running).
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Old October 27 2011, 07:59 PM   #132
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
I'm still thankful I skipped that.
In fairness, there were some good parts in that movie. This bit, for example.
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Old October 27 2011, 09:21 PM   #133
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Regarding Siddig's performance, I wonder whether it's possible he was specifically asked to perform in that manner. This seems like a situation where the director may be partially (or even fully) responsible, if they were satisfied with what they got from him.
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Old October 28 2011, 12:59 AM   #134
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I agree..."Rao Vantika" was barf-tastic. That was quite possibly the worst acting in the entire series.
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Old October 28 2011, 02:07 AM   #135
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The Passenger was never going to be anything more than mediocre, but I think the episode actually works ok, until... something... happens... to... Alexander... Siddig... Yikes.

What's odd about it is you see actors do this kind of thing all the time, where they get to act out of character and be all evil or whatever... and almost always the results are at least interesting. But here it's just awful. At least it doesn't last very long.
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