TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[Sykonee]

TheGodBen wrote:

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I'm not good at judging hair, and if you knew me as a teenager you'd agree. Besides, any time I see Avery Brooks with hair I think it's weird.

Oh no, I've managed to worm a counter into nearly every one of your threads. I WILL NOT BE DENIED!

Seriously though, since this is a revisit, how about a counter that plays into that, like an Internal Continuity Counter (plot threads that will be followed up on)? Or maybe something similar to the Scott Bakula Counter, but restricting it to Trek Lore?

[Admiral Shran]

TheGodBen wrote:

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I wonder did the writers intend for him to be recurring or if they just put him in this episode to flesh out the history of the occupation and they liked Alaimo's performance so much that they brought him back for more?

I'm pretty sure that he was meant to be a recurring character. I know that Alaimo has spoken of how they always intended to flesh out the character more besides a one-shot appearance. Now, did they intend for him to become such an integral part of the story? That I don't know.

[Seven of Five]

I heart Emissary.

Though I remember watching it for the first time when I was ten years younger, after there was a break of showing new DS9. I wasn't impressed at how strange Julian was - I don't think it was that long since I'd seen The Quickening. It's amazing how far he (well, everyone really) developed throughout the show.

[TheGodBen]

Sykonee wrote:

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Seriously though, since this is a revisit, how about a counter that plays into that, like an Internal Continuity Counter (plot threads that will be followed up on)? Or maybe something similar to the Scott Bakula Counter, but restricting it to Trek Lore?

I hated that Scott Bakula counter. For every single episode I had to check the IMDb page of every schmuck with a single line of dialogue to see if they ever had a single line of dialogue in an episode of Trek, while also checking to make sure that they hadn't made an appearance in a previous episode of B5. I'm not putting myself through that again.

I could do a counter for every character from a previous Trek series that shows up on DS9, if you want to claim that that was your idea.

Admiral Shran wrote:

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I'm pretty sure that he was meant to be a recurring character. I know that Alaimo has spoken of how they always intended to flesh out the character more besides a one-shot appearance. Now, did they intend for him to become such an integral part of the story? That I don't know.

Sounds a bit like what happened with Andrew Robinson, they hired him for what was supposed to be a recurring role, then they didn't bother bringing him back until season 2. Dukat was luckier as he got a scene in Duet, but it is weird that they created these brilliant characters played by great actors and they ignored them for a whole year. But I guess that seeing Bashir possessed by an evil criminal, or having Rumpelstiltskin show up, seemed more important at the time.

[The Dominion]

But how awesome was Rumpelstiltskin in space?

[Canadave]

^ Does awesome mean something different where you are?

[The Dominion]

It means creepy old gnomes in space.

[The Dominion]

Which, really is getting to close to this:

[Gary7]

^ ! In space, nobody can hear your pot of gold.

[Admiral Shran]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Sounds a bit like what happened with Andrew Robinson, they hired him for what was supposed to be a recurring role, then they didn't bother bringing him back until season 2. Dukat was luckier as he got a scene in Duet, but it is weird that they created these brilliant characters played by great actors and they ignored them for a whole year. But I guess that seeing Bashir possessed by an evil criminal, or having Rumpelstiltskin show up, seemed more important at the time.

In the beginning, they probably meant to treat the majority of the recurring characters like those kinds of characters had been treated on TNG, which meant that they would appear roughly once per season. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

[Sykonee]

Admiral Shran wrote:

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In the beginning, they probably meant to treat the majority of the recurring characters like those kinds of characters had been treated on TNG, which meant that they would appear roughly once per season. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Well, there were a few that were reoccurring even through S1: Rom, Nog, Keiko... um, Molly... Morn?

[TheGodBen]

Past Prologue (***½)

From what I can tell, this episode was produced third but aired second, which was a good move for two reasons. Firstly, exploring the political realities of Bajor makes for a more satisfying follow-up to Emissary than a story about murdering a clone. Secondly, it gives us an opportunity to explore the most important character on the show after Sisko, Morn... I mean, Kira! Kira has to be the first main character on Star Trek that actively dislikes the Federation, and what a wonderful decision that was, because questioning the actions of the Federation is healthy and that was previously a viewpoint reserved for the villains. This episode does exactly what needs to be done in showing her conflicting loyalties, and how she comes to realise that some Bajorans are a bigger threat to Bajor than the big bad Federation.

The big problem with this episode is the complete lack of fallout from Sisko discovering the Celestial Temple. I'm pretty sure that if we found Allah hiding out in the Kuiper belt it would be an Earth-shaking event that people would be talking about months later, but there's not a whiff of that in this episode. And it's not just that the writers ignore the issue, it's that they address the wormhole frequently without any emphasis on the religious element of it. I can understand Tahna Los' reasoning for trying to collapse the entrance to the wormhole, and perhaps he doesn't care about the religious implications because he's not a religious guy, but it's absolute craziness that Kira doesn't address that issue once Tahna reveals his plan.

The thing this episode is probably most remembered for is the introduction of Garak. I wonder whether the writers had plans for him to actually be a spy working for the Cardassians or if it was always their intention that he was in exile (or, most likely, they had no idea themselves). I also wonder why Garak decided to spark up a friendship with Bashir. Did he think that Julian was young and naive enough to serve as a contact within the command staff? Did he see something special in Julian that he wanted to nurture and guide? Or did he just think that Julian might make an interesting dining companion? Was he really coming on to Bashir, or was he just playing games and trying to freak him out? I still don't know the answers to those questions, which is part of what makes Garak so awesome.

Form of... a rat: 2
Wormhole in Peril: 1
Sykonee's Counter: 4

[JoeD80]

TheGodBen wrote:

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I wonder did the writers intend for him to be recurring or if they just put him in this episode to flesh out the history of the occupation and they liked Alaimo's performance so much that they brought him back for more?

Yep he's in the first writer's bible as a recurring character. But then so is Kai Opaka.

TheGodBen wrote:

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I wonder whether the writers had plans for him to actually be a spy working for the Cardassians or if it was always their intention that he was in exile (or, most likely, they had no idea themselves).

I'm going with spy because Peter Allan Fields had written for Man From UNCLE where a tailor's shop was a front for the spy agency.

TheGodBen wrote:

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Was he really coming on to Bashir

Andrew Robinson said (from an interview by Liz Sourbut):

Andrew Robinson wrote:

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I started out playing Garak as someone who doesn't have a defined sexuality. He's not gay, he's not straight, it’s a non-issue for him. Basically his sexuality is inclusive...The fact that the attractive human being is a man (Bashir) doesn't make any difference to him...For the most part, the writers supported the character beautifully, but in that area they just made a choice they didn't want to go there, and if they don't want to go there I can't, because the writing doesn’t support it.

[Seven of Five]

I never really saw Garak as coming onto Bashir, which is odd because I'm gay and I always see homosexual subtext when there was never intended to be any. But my perception of him was impaired again because I saw season one after I'd seen 2-4. Or maybe more, I have trouble remembering a decade ago. I can barely remember yesterday.

Whether he is or not, he's Garak, and he's pretty amazing. I agree that this episode isn't the best showcase for him, but it was a pretty decent follow-up to Emissary.

[Nerys Ghemor]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Kira has to be the first main character on Star Trek that actively dislikes the Federation, and what a wonderful decision that was, because questioning the actions of the Federation is healthy and that was previously a viewpoint reserved for the villains.

I agree about how important this was. I think part of the preachiness of TNG, and where so many of its episodes failed (even good ones like "The Wounded") was the it was always Federation views and behaviors being treated as perfect (even when blatantly wrong) and anything an alien said to contradict that meant they just couldn't understand those lofty humans and needed a lesson in the moral of the week.