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Old October 16 2011, 11:27 AM   #16
Gul Re'jal
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Re: DS9 Season 10, ep 10x08 - "Property Values"

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
And I just love the gag about Morn still not saying anything on screen because he gets stage fright. That had been built in from the start. Ro's lame joke about "pointers" just came to me as I was writing it.

.
Oh, I forgot about that. When reading that part I though, "Noooo, he's going to ruin Morn!" But no, that didn't happen

I actually laughed at Ro's terrible joke
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Old October 17 2011, 08:10 PM   #17
lvsxy808
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Re: DS9 Season 10, ep 10x08 - "Property Values"

Gul Spook wrote: View Post
Oh, I forgot about that. When reading that part I though, "Noooo, he's going to ruin Morn!" But no, that didn't happen
I believe it was Marco Palmieri who once said, "Some things are sacred."

You won't catch the Rio Grande getting destroyed in any of my stories either.

.
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Old May 26 2012, 08:45 AM   #18
Paper Moon
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Re: DS9 Season 10, ep 10x08 - "Property Values"

So I know I'm late to the party right now, but I needed to chime in...

I'm really really enjoying reading your scripts, lvsxy808. I love my DS9-R and TNG-R and all the other TrekLit we've got these days– but Star Trek is best done in one or two hour long TV episodes. And these scripts capture that really well.

Reading these make me feel like I'm watching the original DS9 episodes over again for the first time. Except the stories are different, and, for the most part, I don't know what's coming next. That's a great feeling.

One thing, in particular, that I like about this format is that it allows for "light" stories like "Property Values." In the novels, we don't get these brief interludes (most of the time). The novels are like DS9's story arcs, like the Final Chapter, written in prose. Lots of Big Deal Things happening, with little narrative time available for stuff that isn't universe-shattering. I really enjoyed how "Property Values," and "Steppin' Out," were completely self-contained, but still tied into larger narratives. Great stuff.

Specific to "Property Values": (spoilers ahead, obviously!)
-I liked Vic and Treir sleeping together. They both deserved it, and I think it was handled well.
-Nog's speech to Quark, convincing him that he really believed in female equality, rang very true to what would have been done in the original show.
-the confrontation of Malic was perfect. It felt, to me anyway, like those great ensemble moments like the last scene of "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," or the scene on the Promenade from "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang." Again, great stuff.
-I enjoyed the use of the Ferengi "Merchant Navy," and the subtle, but appreciated, fleshing-out thereof.

Comments on a few other episodes, included here for convenience (I hope you don't mind, I just figured it was better to necro one thread instead of several; I can edit, copy-and-paste and repost if you prefer):

-"The Dream Box": Oh. My. God. This. Was. Freak. Ing. Awesome. Ghemor's assassination (differently than I had expected!). "Unkee Ga'ak" (!!), paralleled with Mev's demise. The very convincing depiction of Cardassia's re-descent into Hell. The way the almost completely unrelated teaser ties into the penultimate scene. I think this would have been one of my favorite DS9 episodes, had it been produced.

-"Instinct": Though a very solid follow-up to "The Dream Box," I find this episode aesthetically displeasing. Don't get me wrong, the story is excellent. O'Brien's behavior is all-too-believable, and Kira's, though I personally find it a little less believable, is also very plausible. The problem is that two characters acting stupid but in-character is still two of my favorite characters (particularly O'Brien) acting very (understandably) stupid. So that was less enjoyable. Still, great moments: Ambassador Taran'atar at the negotiating table (actually, that whole scene), Kira playing with Yoshi, Nog dressing down O'Brien. (Though, on the topic of "things sacred," I think you may have broken the rules, showing Bashir and O'Brien in the holosuite! )

-"Deep Down": Loved the parallelism of the three characters having nightmares. The teaser was great, and really foreshadows what we will see in Zero Sum Game very well. I must admit, I am not entirely convinced that Bashir would react quite as immaturely to his bad dreams as he does in the episode, but I suspect that that may arise from just reading descriptions of what's going on. I bet that if I saw (visually, not verbally) Bashir being as drained by the lack of sleep he was under, I would find it easier to believe.

-"Easy Come, Easy Go": The meaning of this episode's name did not hit me until about 2/3 of the way through. And I realized, oh snap, she's not pulling any punches! Real mid-season cast changes! Holy crap! But seriously, it was a great realization. Bringing Shar back (though sort of inconsistent with Paths of Disharmony, though I think you can retcon it by fudging the years...), bringing Taran'atar back and Vannis in, great ideas. Opaka leaving: But I feel like you have exciting things in store for her. (Side note: loved the developments between Shar and Prynn; very believable and very tastefully done.) And then the kicker: getting rid of Ezri. Full disclosure (brief rant ahead): I really don't care for Ezri. She was okay on the show, but has gotten less and less okay as time went on. The way she treated Bashir in Unjoined, in particular, teared it for me. And I don't like what she's become either. Shrugging off Picard in Destiny = the sign of an idiot, in my books. Way too smug and full of herself, for my tastes. And the way she acts in this episode does nothing to soften my opinion. She knew the announcement of her transfer was going to be announced soon, and she should have told Julian in private beforehand. "There was never the perfect time," is a lame, lame excuse. So you tell him at an imperfect time, Ezri. Grow up. [rant over] I found it poignant that no one came to say good-bye to Ezri at the end; kind of a DS9 ritual, seeing people off at the airlock. Very telling, and very believable that no one comes.

-"Blank Slate": I liked this. Seeing some of those missing gaps in Ro's story was really great. And seeing Quark treat her so, well, tenderly, was great as well. It felt like a little bit of the story was missing, though. Like the story skipped from 80% completion to 90%, right before Ro gets "all better." Felt like there should have been a little more there. I suspect some of this was the cost of the (totally necessary) attention paid to Taran'atar's storyline. I thought Ro's return to hypo-dependence was well-done, if more than a little bit depressing. Again, though, it felt a touch contrived: is Ro going back to it because of all the horrors in her past that she's reexamining? It felt like there was a small piece of the puzzle missing.

and lastly (for tonight– I've binged on these, and I need to go to sleep!):

-"Steppin' Out": I love this episode. I have a soft spot for Vic episodes, and this one is very well done. A perfect example of why people should still keep writing Trek scripts. This story has a punch to it, a very well-executed building drama and a very satisfying pay-off. I think I actually cheered the first time I read the part where Bashir gives Vic the emitter. And Vic's fantasy DS9 is an excellent twist, and very plausible given the development of the character.

Have I made clear how much I'm enjoying these and how much I'm looking forward to reading the rest?

Side question that you need not feel obligated to answer: would you mind posting the "episode lists" for seasons 8 and 9, possibly describing in appropriately general terms what parts of each novel went into each episode? I'm really curious how you divided them up (or squeezed them into one episode, like "A Stitch in Time" [!!!] or "Rising Son"). Obviously I understand the need to respect the original authors' works, but I feel like you could show how you split them up without it being a problem.

My apologies if you have already done that elsewhere, and, of course, I'd completely understand if you didn't feel good about doing that.
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Old May 26 2012, 09:56 PM   #19
lvsxy808
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Re: DS9 Season 10, ep 10x08 - "Property Values"

Oh my god oh my god oh my god!

Such a wonderful in-depth post that I spent about an hour replying to... and then pressed the wrong button and lost the whole thing. I nearly killed myself.

I'll try to remember what I wrote...

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
So I know I'm late to the party right now, but I needed to chime in...
I'm very grateful that you went to such extent to reply, it's very gratifying.

Reading these make me feel like I'm watching the original DS9 episodes over again for the first time. Except the stories are different, and, for the most part, I don't know what's coming next. That's a great feeling.
"For the most part" ?

I am trying to set up for some of things we see later in Rough Beasts, in the same way TNG's A Time to... series set up Nemesis.

One thing, in particular, that I like about this format is that it allows for "light" stories like "Property Values." I really enjoyed how "Property Values," and "Steppin' Out," were completely self-contained, but still tied into larger narratives. Great stuff.
I agree that DS9-R has been a bit heavy, considering that DS9 itself has the highest comedy-to-drama ratio of all the shows. I tried to bring the light back a bit, which is easier with an episodic format. There are two more comedy-ish episodes to come from where you're at.

Specific to "Property Values": (spoilers ahead, obviously!)
-I liked Vic and Treir sleeping together. They both deserved it, and I think it was handled well.
It's a nice pairing, isn't it? Two fantasy characters who find each other more real than anyone else.

-Nog's speech to Quark, convincing him that he really believed in female equality, rang very true to what would have been done in the original show.
I'm quite proud of that one myself - pointing out Quark's own contradictions in a way he can't deny. He's gradually got more hew-mon like in his treatment of females, but he doesn't like that about himself, because it conflicts with his strongly held Ferengi values. And I don't think anyone but Nog could point it out to him in quite that way.

-"The Dream Box": Oh. My. God. This. Was. Freak. Ing. Awesome. Ghemor's assassination (differently than I had expected!). "Unkee Ga'ak" (!!), paralleled with Mev's demise. The very convincing depiction of Cardassia's re-descent into Hell. The way the almost completely unrelated teaser ties into the penultimate scene. I think this would have been one of my favorite DS9 episodes, had it been produced.
Big grin!

It's one of my faves too. I love that Garak is bouncing Yoshi on his knee and playing space-shuttle with him at the beginning of the episode, and killing a man with his bare hands at the end, but it's all Garak. The crazy thing is that Jartek actually thought he was doing what was best for Cardassia. He's not evil, he just miscalculated horrendously. About the teaser - I hadn't originally intended on returning to it for the last scene. But as I came to write it, I realised it was perfect, as if my subconscious had been planning it all alone.

Ambassador Taran'atar at the negotiating table (actually, that whole scene)
Bless him, he's just so out of his depth, but still trying. And then he's got L'Haan whispering in his ear the whole time too...

(Though, on the topic of "things sacred," I think you may have broken the rules, showing Bashir and O'Brien in the holosuite! )
You know, it never occurred to me that with all of O'Brien and Bashir's holosuite adventures, we never actually saw them just heard them. I didn't even realise i was breaking a taboo with this. Sorry!

-"Deep Down": Loved the parallelism of the three characters having nightmares. The teaser was great, and really foreshadows what we will see in Zero Sum Game very well. I must admit, I am not entirely convinced that Bashir would react quite as immaturely to his bad dreams as he does in the episode,
I get the feeling Bashir thinks nightmares are juvenile, that he should be past that, even associates it with his pre-enhancement childhood state. I think that's why he's so determined to find a scientific explanation for the dreams, because to admit he has bad dreams would be embarrassing. In an attempt to prove he's not a child any more, he ends up acting more childish than ever.

but I suspect that that may arise from just reading descriptions of what's going on. I bet that if I saw (visually, not verbally) Bashir being as drained by the lack of sleep he was under, I would find it easier to believe.
I do feel like this is a "director's episode" where a lot of what I'm trying to convey would depend on the director finding the right shots to create the right atmosphere.

-"Easy Come, Easy Go": The meaning of this episode's name did not hit me until about 2/3 of the way through. And I realized, oh snap, she's not pulling any punches! Real mid-season cast changes! Holy crap! But seriously, it was a great realization.
I wasn't sure anybody ever got that title! Glad to see somebody did.

But... umm... I'm a boy. Last time I checked anyway.

Bringing Shar back (though sort of inconsistent with Paths of Disharmony, though I think you can retcon it by fudging the years...), bringing Taran'atar back and Vannis in, great ideas.
Inconsistent with PoD and ZSG, yes I know. But I had stories I wanted to write for both of them, and there was enough wiggle room to get away with it. I hope.

I really don't care for Ezri. She was okay on the show, but has gotten less and less okay as time went on. The way she treated Bashir in Unjoined, in particular, teared it for me. And I don't like what she's become either. Shrugging off Picard in Destiny = the sign of an idiot, in my books. Way too smug and full of herself, for my tastes. And the way she acts in this episode does nothing to soften my opinion. She knew the announcement of her transfer was going to be announced soon, and she should have told Julian in private beforehand. "There was never the perfect time," is a lame, lame excuse. So you tell him at an imperfect time, Ezri. Grow up. [rant over]
Interesting... another poster said that she thought I wrote Ezri really well, because she didn't like her on the show and she didn't like her in my stories either. So at least I was being consistent! But I really do think Ezri has that bratty, petulant aspect to her character in a way Jadzia never did. You're right - since she started integrating her past lives more, the arrogance and hubris has grown. It's an interesting direction to take the character, and I wonder if they're doing it deliberately.

-"Blank Slate": I liked this. Seeing some of those missing gaps in Ro's story was really great. And seeing Quark treat her so, well, tenderly, was great as well.
I'm a little worried I've actually been emphasising that aspect of Quark a bit too much. But it's nice to see that he does genuinely care for her, even if nothing's ever going to come of it.

I thought Ro's return to hypo-dependence was well-done, if more than a little bit depressing. Again, though, it felt a touch contrived: is Ro going back to it because of all the horrors in her past that she's reexamining? It felt like there was a small piece of the puzzle missing.
Keep reading.

-"Steppin' Out": I love this episode. I have a soft spot for Vic episodes, and this one is very well done. A perfect example of why people should still keep writing Trek scripts. This story has a punch to it, a very well-executed building drama and a very satisfying pay-off. I think I actually cheered the first time I read the part where Bashir gives Vic the emitter. And Vic's fantasy DS9 is an excellent twist, and very plausible given the development of the character.
Everyone seems to love this one! It was the first to pass 1000 view on Ad Astra!

Side question that you need not feel obligated to answer: would you mind posting the "episode lists" for seasons 8 and 9, possibly describing in appropriately general terms what parts of each novel went into each episode? I'm really curious how you divided them up (or squeezed them into one episode, like "A Stitch in Time" [!!!] or "Rising Son"). Obviously I understand the need to respect the original authors' works, but I feel like you could show how you split them up without it being a problem.
Done it - here and here.

And thanks again for such thoughtful responses. It's very much appreciated.

.
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Old May 27 2012, 07:01 AM   #20
Paper Moon
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Re: DS9 Season 10, ep 10x08 - "Property Values"

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
So I know I'm late to the party right now, but I needed to chime in...
I'm very grateful that you went to such extent to reply, it's very gratifying.
My pleasure!

Reading these make me feel like I'm watching the original DS9 episodes over again for the first time. Except the stories are different, and, for the most part, I don't know what's coming next. That's a great feeling.
"For the most part" ?

I am trying to set up for some of things we see later in Rough Beasts, in the same way TNG's A Time to... series set up Nemesis.
Yeah, you caught on to what I meant; there are certain things that I know will (in all likelihood) eventually happen:


I agree that DS9-R has been a bit heavy, considering that DS9 itself has the highest comedy-to-drama ratio of all the shows. I tried to bring the light back a bit, which is easier with an episodic format. There are two more comedy-ish episodes to come from where you're at.
Ooh, yay! Looking forward!

It's a nice pairing, isn't it? Two fantasy characters who find each other more real than anyone else.
Hadn't thought of it that way myself, but I agree. (It does bring up the interesting question of the, hmm, completeness of Vic's program... )

I'm quite proud of that one myself - pointing out Quark's own contradictions in a way he can't deny. He's gradually got more hew-mon like in his treatment of females, but he doesn't like that about himself, because it conflicts with his strongly held Ferengi values. And I don't think anyone but Nog could point it out to him in quite that way.
The novels, and now your scripts, have continued Quark's story arc in a very interesting way. I enjoy how he gets to throw his weight around as ambassador; gives him the prestige/power/recognition I think he's always wanted, but in a different way than he expected. And the continuing evolution of his attitude towards women is completely believable the way it's depicted here.

Big grin!

It's one of my faves too. I love that Garak is bouncing Yoshi on his knee and playing space-shuttle with him at the beginning of the episode, and killing a man with his bare hands at the end, but it's all Garak. The crazy thing is that Jartek actually thought he was doing what was best for Cardassia. He's not evil, he just miscalculated horrendously. About the teaser - I hadn't originally intended on returning to it for the last scene. But as I came to write it, I realised it was perfect, as if my subconscious had been planning it all alone.
I see what you mean about Jartek. I think there is something to be said for the notion that all evil derives from horrendous miscalculations– but that is a discussion for another day. I did like how Jartek's intentions do appear to be good in the long run, and it's interesting how Garak continues the cycle of violence in order to punish Jartek for basically doing the same. Looking forward to reading your adaptation of "The Calling"; I read it recently, and was disappointed. Didn't seem to really be a Star Trek story, so I look forward to seeing how you clarified it.

Question/theory: could the Vinculum be related to the wormhole and the Orbs? The way the Vinculum experience was written makes it sound a bit like an Orb experience. And we're seeing lots of Bajor-Cardassia parallels being unearthed...

Bless him, he's just so out of his depth, but still trying. And then he's got L'Haan whispering in his ear the whole time too...
I loved how Taran'atar was using his keen perceptions to pick up on people's body language. Adaptation at work!

You know, it never occurred to me that with all of O'Brien and Bashir's holosuite adventures, we never actually saw them just heard them. I didn't even realise i was breaking a taboo with this. Sorry!
Nah, no biggie. I don't think it reaches the level of taboo, and anyway, I think it makes a statement the way you did it. It's almost like, "Hey, things just aren't the way they used to be, no matter how hard we try." You couldn't have done that scene outside of the holosuite for that very reason.

I get the feeling Bashir thinks nightmares are juvenile, that he should be past that, even associates it with his pre-enhancement childhood state. I think that's why he's so determined to find a scientific explanation for the dreams, because to admit he has bad dreams would be embarrassing. In an attempt to prove he's not a child any more, he ends up acting more childish than ever.
Hmm, yeah, I can buy that. Particularly in the light of "Cathedral." (Perhaps there could be some visual callbacks to that episode during his dream sequences?)

I do feel like this is a "director's episode" where a lot of what I'm trying to convey would depend on the director finding the right shots to create the right atmosphere.
Totally agree. That was what I was trying to say, but failed.

I wasn't sure anybody ever got that title! Glad to see somebody did.

But... umm... I'm a boy. Last time I checked anyway.
Haha, yeah, I'm really sorry about that. It was after 3am over here when I was writing that. I knew your name was "Martyn," too! No brains...


Interesting... another poster said that she thought I wrote Ezri really well, because she didn't like her on the show and she didn't like her in my stories either. So at least I was being consistent! But I really do think Ezri has that bratty, petulant aspect to her character in a way Jadzia never did. You're right - since she started integrating her past lives more, the arrogance and hubris has grown. It's an interesting direction to take the character, and I wonder if they're doing it deliberately.
Yeah, I agree that you write Ezri well. I think it's a logical extension of the character as we saw her on the show (too young and inexperienced to be joined). Despite the revelation that it is biologically possible to join 50% of Trills, it seems clear to me that it's not psychologically sound to do so. Ezri is exhibit A.
I'm a little worried I've actually been emphasising that aspect of Quark a bit too much. But it's nice to see that he does genuinely care for her, even if nothing's ever going to come of it.
It doesn't seem that way to me. Quark has a very long character arc, and I think this "tenderness development" is perfectly in line with that.


Keep reading.
Ha, already have! Half-way through 10x11! I must admit, I'm really not crazy about the Ro-gets-addicted-to-painkillers idea; it's extremely plausible and very well done, there's just something that I find... extremely depressing about it. (Moreso than anything else I've read/seen in Trekdom.) Can't quite explain it.

Done it - here and here.
Thank you! Very cool.

And thanks again for such thoughtful responses. It's very much appreciated.
My pleasure! I will post more responses in the main discussion thread after I've read more!
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