VAN: What Judgements Come by Ward & Dilmore Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[BrotherBenny]

TerilynnS wrote:

---

I must disagree. It is very possible that while "the end" as Pennington so tiredly stated it may indeed be the end - do not discount the very real possibility it won't be the "real" end. Mack has a knack for finding brilliant ways to kill characters off. It's possible that the story - which starts in "real time" in WJC can merely just pick up again - leaving Pennington and Reyes to face some unforeseen drama - leaving them both dead. Pennington did a LOT of homework to FIND Reyes - it's possible his own investigation drudged up people who are also looking to find Reyes - and silence him permanently...

It's a framing story so it has to take place outside the story itself. We are meant to believe that Operation Vanguard is over by the time Pennington tracks down Reyes and asks Reyes about his final time on/near SB47. Then we have the lead-in to Storming Heaven in which Pennington tells Reyes what happens after Reyes leaves:

'I was there until the end, mate. The bloody, bitter, end.' or words to that effect.

So Pennington is telling that us that he was there when it finally came to end. I don't think there's anything ambiguous in that statement.

[TerilynnS]

Well I guess we'll have to wait until April (?) to see what Mack drums up for us! I've been given the sense of false security with these writers before. I'm not letting my guard down until the end of Storming Heaven.

[Defcon]

TerilynnS wrote:

---

Well I guess we'll have to wait until April (?)

While the official release month is April, the "release date" (and the date for the eBooks) is March 27th, so the MMPB should be out sometime mid-March.

[MatthiasRussell]

TerilynnS wrote:

---

Well I guess we'll have to wait until April (?) to see what Mack drums up for us! I've been given the sense of false security with these writers before. I'm not letting my guard down until the end of Storming Heaven.

I'll second this. Though we know Pennington and Reyes survive to the conversation in discussion, for all we know, that conversation doesn't end the Vangaurd story. More might take place after that point. The Vanguard guys have woven a complex tale; who knows where they will continue taking us.

[MatthiasRussell]

[QUOTE=SolidusRaccoon;5281012]Compared to the other Vanguard books it felt flat. I dearly loved the others and maybe I went into this one with me expectations set too high. The subplots involving the Defiant and Nimbus III were just filler. We all know how those plots end, and it was not worth taking away from the main story to tell them.

Ganz got the short end of the stick, before I felt a real threat from him, now he was just laughable. It was like he was made a cliche villain from a Saturday morning cartoon. I felt bad for him, and his death was almost a mercy killing.

QUOTE]

I agree with these 2 statements. The Defiant and Nimbus parts gave back story but weren't interesting to me. i like Jetanien but skimmed through those parts as they were irrelevant to the tale.

Ganz was also far different from how he began. But he also was no longer in control of his situation without Zett and having to deal with Nogura. However, I expected him to have more regard for Reyes based on earlier books. Obviously Neela was the brains of the opperation but I still expected Ganz to be a bit more in control of himself.

[DrBashir]

Very much in agreement, particularly about Ganz. In the first few books he came across as a dangerous, intelligent character of his own. After the revelation of who was really in charge he started being portrayed more and more as impulsive and cartoonish. It was a disappointment.

Almost as big a disappointment is the tratment of Quinn. He became this action hero just long enough to get rid of Zett and have an adventure and then he's right back where he started. Even lower than that since he doesn't even have a ship at this point. It was a very big swing one way and then even further back and it just doesn't feel right. If he swings back the other was in the final novel it's going to feel even stranger. he was a great character and I'm disappointed in how he's turned out these past couple of books.

Penningtons comment about "the bloody end" may just refer to the station itself. Such a shame that a series with so much potential is being ended.

[CaptainSarine]

Just finished this a couple of days ago. I enjoyed it, though not as much as the earlier installments. I agree with what has been said here so far about the Nimbus III and Defiant plotlines - although it was interesting to see how the Planet of Galactic Peace began and ended in flames, it could have tightened up the story to jettison them.

However, I disagree about the treatment of Quinn. I think they're setting him up for a rebound in the next book, giving him a character arc that makes sense from the personality and character that we know. I look forward to seeing what they do with him in the next book.

Argh, March 2012?!!! Hurry up!

[Bob Karo]

Personally, I loved the story thread with the Defiant. I especially love that they took the broad strokes of the SCE story involving its recovery. I always loved that story.

I agree that the Nimbus III parts fell flat. But, it was nice to see a reason all three parties would continue sending diplomats that was better than, "it's there."

Over all, I liked it. The end of Ganz's story was good. I also agree that Quinn was portrayed very in character and will hopefully rise above it in the end.

[MatthiasRussell]

I don't think Quinn is being set up for a happy ending. He is a tragic Don Quixote character and I have no doubt will come to a tragic end. I was shocked that Declassified took away everything Quinn got in Precipice. His new ship and lover gone. The apostate's death seemed to be for nothing. "Quinn must suffer." And at this point, I think Quinn would view death as merciful. But we can hope.

[ToddCam]

Finished it yesterday.

It was ok. I liked parts of it.

Quinn was completely worthless in this book. He disgusts me. Good way to celebrate Bridy Mac's life by throwing away everything she stood for. Pathetic.

Ganz is gone. The thing is, I never really felt he was very developed. Faceless and offhand for most of the series, then more of a generic angry mobster (which I guess he always was). Oh well.

I read this back to back with Declassified. I guess that one was the one to do it first, but I found the additional "origin" to the Tkon to be blah. I know there's no rule about being adherent to past books, but the Q Continuum trilogy already explained what happened to the Tkon, and so I was less than interested in the new twist.

I am sad for the destruction of Lovell as well. I thought it was in Foundations III, but it may have just been al-Khaled. I hope it's not the last we see of that crew. So much of the film era is unexplored! (Why is everyone so obsessed with that garbage five-year-mission anyway?)

I found it very conspicuous that Pennington did not reference Amity Price when he was thinking of Ganz "disappearing" people. Especially since that story was written by Ward.

Nimbus III stuff was kind of boring.

Nitpicks over.

I am excited for the end of the series. I think a problem with the series is that some of its cast never really reached depth for me. I got a real sense of Reyes, Fisher, T'Prynn, Pennington, Quinn, and to a lesser extent Desai, but Ganz, Jetanien, Xiong, and Lurqal/Sandesjo were very nebulous or one-note to me. I was especially interested in the exploration of Orions and Chelons, and very little of that (especially the latter) was realized. However, many of the supporting characters shined, like Khatami and the Sagittarius crew.

[Mage]

Finished this a few days ago.

A very enjoyable read, with some parts being less interesting then others. The overall feel was a bit different then other Vanguard novels, but not in a bad way.

I agree that the Ganz-story line was resolved a bit rushed all at once, with the final conclusion not being what I had expected but still satisfactory.
The Defiant-parts and Nimbus parts felt......odd. Not adding to the storyline itself. I see WHY the parts set on Defiant where necessary, but they lacked a certain depth. The entire Nimbus-story in Vanguard itself felt more like a reason to explain this planet's excistance in the Trek universe then being a real part of the Vanguard Saga. That said, I did find that part of the novel very interesting, and feel it could have been a novel or two by itself.

Quinn..... yeah..... I was really rooting for this guy in the last few books, and I truly hope that there is a true purpose to his path at the moment, otherwise I'll be sorrowly disappointed after the last novel.

Other then that, the biggest feeling I got from this novel, which I think was the what both writers intended and they did very well, is that things are going sour big time, and I can't help but shake the feeling that at the end of the last novel, a lot of the big players in Operation Vanguard will not make it through to the end.

[MatthiasRussell]

Though I am sad to see Quinn throwing his life away again, I understand it in light of knowing he was inspired from Don Quixote and meant to be a tragic life story. Pennington told Quinn he was dishonoring Bridy's sacrifice by the way he was living as a ToddCam said. Maybe those words will have an impact.

[DrBashir]

I have no trouble with Quinn reacting as he did after Bridy Mac's (supposed) death but more with the speed that he went from drunken slob to super solder in Precipice. Zett was made out to be this very efficent killer and Quinn was able to go prety much toe to toe with him dispite having been a drunken slop for many years beforehand. Now, he's back to being a drunk and it just seems that it was awfully convient that he was at the top of his game just long enough to take out Zett.

It's not the path he's taken but the extremes of it.

[MatthiasRussell]

Precipice described him as having been a pretty formidable mercenary when he was younger, so I don't think it was much of a stretch. He had also been training a lot before the show down when Zett was over confident because he felt Quinn would be an easy fight. I think that voctory was more Zett's loss than Quinn's win.

[MatthiasRussell]

Dayton Ward addressed Ganz's down fall on his blog:

"Ganz began the unraveling process back in Open Secrets, when Nogura gave him the boot, and then he had to find a way to beg his way back into the admiral’s good graces, and so on. Neera was always the brains of the outfit, but she was content to let him be the public face of the organization (and the one with the target on his back), and taking care of the day-to-day business of running things. When Ganz started suffering setback after setback, we had to wonder how long he could go on being the one “in charge” before somebody decided to cut their losses. Having Reyes right under his nose and yet being powerless to do anything about him even while he knew Reyes had to be getting away with this or that, would be enough to piss anybody off, eventually. At least, that was part of our thinking. We’d actually played with the idea of having Neera off him in WJC, but eventually decided it would be more fun to have that big escape sequence, with Ganz finally losing his cool after being played so completely."

http://daytonward.wordpress.com/2011...icial-qa-post/