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Old September 28 2011, 04:23 AM   #931
Turtletrekker
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Dennis wrote: View Post
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Of course - by sacrificing the art.
Absolute nonsense. You don't need to sacrifice one for the other. John Byrne, George Perez, Jack Kirby, the list goes on of artists that can deliver the goods without wasting space on the page.

Personally, I've always felt that story was more important than art anyway. That's the reason why I abandoned Image Comics right after picking up most of their #1's back in the day. It was pretty art, but the "stories" read like toy catalogs.

At the rate, by the time the first JL story is done, there will probably only really be four issues of material in a six issue arc. Again, a problem shared by many comic companies these days (Bendis, despite my recently defending him in another thread, is really bad at this.).
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Old September 28 2011, 04:54 AM   #932
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Of course - by sacrificing the art.
Absolute nonsense. You don't need to sacrifice one for the other.
It's absolutely what this guy did. I'm looking at it; don't tell me such nonsense.

Personally, I've always felt that story was more important than art anyway.
I don't. As I said, I can and do spend my valuable time reading much better books than anything the comic industry has ever produced.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:06 AM   #933
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

The art was hardly a "sacrifice" if the story and pacing are improved, which they were by far.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:17 AM   #934
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Interesting experiment...unfortunately the compressed issue doesn't alter or fix any of the problems that I had with the issue so it changes nothing for me.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:23 AM   #935
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
The art was hardly a "sacrifice" if the story and pacing are improved, which they were by far.
No and no, sorry. Evidently this kind of stunt impresses you, but it truly misses the point.

It's only the visual aspect of the medium that makes it worthwhile as a medium. Otherwise, you know - read a real book.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:37 AM   #936
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

The experiment is interesting; that's for sure. However, whether it improves or weakens cannot really be judged properly considering the story written for JL #1 was done so in a specific way. What if, for example, Watchmen was reworked to where it had a ton of splash pages. Would that have made the story better, worse, or the same? Truth is one can never know, because that wasn't the style Moore and Gibbons did.

Also, if story is the thing that you appreciate more in a comic than the art (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that), reworking the story as done in the link won't fix any problems there might be with the narrative. Pretty much what I think Admiral Young was suggesting.

That being said, I understand where the guy is coming from. There has been a seemingly increased focus on splash pages and wider images in comics over the past ten years or so causing the story to be stretched out longer than it feels it needs to be.

ETA: I wonder how long that is going to remain on line before Warner Bros. makes them take it down.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:41 AM   #937
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Plus the guy at the bottom of the article also still encourages people to buy the issue still....as well as he was making a point about something that bugged him he was still supportive of DC to suggest buying the book, that was kind of classy.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:42 AM   #938
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Broccoli wrote: View Post
The experiment is interesting; that's for sure. However, whether it improves or weakens cannot really be judged properly considering the story written for JL #1 was done so in a specific way.
Really. There's nothing I prefer in the reworked version. Knocking the scene with Vic Stone down to half its pages by chopping up the art and jamming word bubbles closer together fucks up the pacing and flow of the thing.

Stone is, for the most part, a new character to me; the fan cut-and-paste job reduces his introduction to a parenthesis surrounding "how Batman and GL fly to Metropolis."

Broccoli wrote: View Post
ETA: I wonder how long that is going to remain on line before Warner Bros. makes them take it down.
If the guy's actually got a version of the entire issue up there I'd assume not long at all. Once it's out on the Internet, though, it'll always be somewhere.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:42 AM   #939
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Plus the guy at the bottom of the article also still encourages people to buy the issue still....as well as he was making a point about something that bugged him he was still supportive of DC to suggest buying the book, that was kind of classy.
Something tells me DC won't care about him being classy.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:43 AM   #940
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

^ LOL. Indeed so.
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Old September 28 2011, 05:44 AM   #941
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Dennis wrote: View Post
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The art was hardly a "sacrifice" if the story and pacing are improved, which they were by far.
Yes and yes. What you are saying would be like saying that Tin Man was only worth watching for the FX, or that they should have cut out a third of the dialog in exchange for more FX, which would be bull. Tin Man was a well crafted story that would be nothing without the skill of the writer.

I find it astonishing that as a writer yourself, you would place more value on the visuals and the 'splosions more than the story.

Big Michael Bay fan, are you?
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Old September 28 2011, 05:51 AM   #942
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Dennis wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
The experiment is interesting; that's for sure. However, whether it improves or weakens cannot really be judged properly considering the story written for JL #1 was done so in a specific way.
Really. There's nothing I prefer in the reworked version. Knocking the scene with Vic Stone down to half its pages by chopping up the art and jamming word bubbles closer together messes up the pacing and flow of the thing.
Perhaps. I bet if JL #1 was released as the "reworked" version, it would be considered "just as good". I'm not intending that as an endorsement of the reworked over the real version; just an observation.

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
The art was hardly a "sacrifice" if the story and pacing are improved, which they were by far.
Yes and yes. What you are saying would be like saying that Tin Man was only worth watching for the FX, or that they should have cut out a third of the dialog in exchange for more FX, which would be bull. Tin Man was a well crafted story that would be nothing without the skill of the writer.

I find it astonishing that as a writer yourself, you would place more value on the visuals and the 'splosions more than the story.

Big Michael Bay fan, are you?
Not to speak for Dennis (and quite frankly, who would want to? ), but a comic writer pretty much writes not only the dialogue and storyline, but also how each page and panel is set-up. A lot of what you see of the artist's work on the page was "ordered" by the writer. Sure, an artist might have some input, but it is mostly the writer's ball. So if Lee drew a lot of splash pages, it's because it was what Johns wrote and what he wanted to see.
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Old September 28 2011, 06:02 AM   #943
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Broccoli wrote: View Post
A lot of what you see of the artist's work on the page was "ordered" by the writer. Sure, an artist might have some input, but it is mostly the writer's ball. So if Lee drew a lot of splash pages, it's because it was what Johns wrote and what he wanted to see.
Of course, I don't dispute that. in fact, in my op on this topic I called out Marvel's Bendis as being a big offender of this kind of de-compressed story-telling.
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Old September 28 2011, 06:25 AM   #944
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
A lot of what you see of the artist's work on the page was "ordered" by the writer. Sure, an artist might have some input, but it is mostly the writer's ball. So if Lee drew a lot of splash pages, it's because it was what Johns wrote and what he wanted to see.
Of course, I don't dispute that. in fact, in my op on this topic I called out Marvel's Bendis as being a big offender of this kind of de-compressed story-telling.
Right. So, I don't understand your earlier complaint. The comic writer has to place an emphasis on visuals, because comics are a visual medium. Without the pictures, comic books aren't much.

So, Dennis is kinda right in that the reworking sacrifices the art. However, I'll go and add that it also sacrifices the writer's intention of how he wanted the book to be read.
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Old September 28 2011, 06:27 AM   #945
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

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However, I'll go and add that it also sacrifices the writer's intention of how he wanted the book to be read.
True as well.
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