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Old September 25 2011, 03:38 AM   #31
RaymondJames
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

I did enjoy Kes greatly but Seven of Nine was needed. Seven brought the show more Borg and with that came darker episodes and a deeper feeling about the show in general. Like Data in TNG, She needed to work towards humanity, in her case however, it was regaining her humanity and at first it was a reluctant pursuit. With her annd the EMH, the show thrived and allowed itself to stand out as a different show than the others. Prior to seven, aside from a few epsiodes the show was warm and light hearted so it needed a good injection of the darker elements.
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Old September 25 2011, 03:50 AM   #32
exodus
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
The Dominion wrote: View Post
Kim really should have gone instead of Kes. I don't know how they would have fit Seven and Kes in together though.
Kes was a feminine, gentle soul. Seven was the opposite.
The stories and interactions that coulda come out of that would have been much more interesting and deep than Harry having the hots for Seven and sometimes embarrassing himself sitcom style.
I think Kes and Seven together might have made it the show more clumbsy and a little redundant by having two characters learning to "grow up". It would have made Seven come off as the "bad sister" while Kes came off as "good" and it might have ruined the intent they had behind Seven while further blanding down Kes.. the "sibling" rivalry between B'Elanna/Seven is more balanced.
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Old September 25 2011, 04:05 AM   #33
Jeff O'Connor
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

I agreed with Brannon about everything he said in this recent two-part interview of his. I dropped a comment on startrek.com's original article telling him if I knew his email I'd have sent him some positive feedback for a change.
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Old September 25 2011, 04:09 AM   #34
Guy Gardener
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

By that time, if they kept to the original concept, Kes should have been middle aged, about 40 in human terms, in mind if not body, and watching Seven discover her humanity SO FUCKING SLOWLY would have made her wonder if Anika was just a little bit retarded or backward.
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Old September 25 2011, 04:18 AM   #35
exodus
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
By that time, if they kept to the original concept, Kes should have been middle aged, about 40 in human terms, in mind if not body, and watching Seven discover her humanity SO FUCKING SLOWLY would have made her wonder if Anika was just a little bit retarded or backward.
They did keep with the original concept.
Kes was supposed to be so overly curious, she's wander off from safety to explore unknown.
She did it when she left the Ocampan city to go to the surface.
She did it again when she defied her people to go off with strangers on Voyager.
She thought about leaving Voyager in "Coldfire" & again in "Darkling" to be with a man she hardly knew.
So when she requested it again in "The Gift", Janeway said "if you still wanna go so bad, C-Ya!"
So basically, while Kes was book smart she didn't have any street smarts.
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Old September 25 2011, 04:22 AM   #36
Guy Gardener
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

No, I think she just kept looking for new streets.
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Old September 25 2011, 04:26 AM   #37
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
No, I think she just kept looking for new streets.
She found skid row.
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Old September 28 2011, 01:34 AM   #38
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

I agree that Seven really was a great addition. Possibly the greatest cast addition to any show I can remember. However, Kes had so much more to offer. Don't know why they had to get rid of her. Idiot should've tossed Kim. I don't care what poll had him in the top ten. How many women have ever STOPPED watching a show because some supposedly hot character left? Seriously? Perhaps if it was some kind of pivotal character, but even then, we're far less likely to stop watching and lord knows it's not as if he was gaining any viewers.
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Old September 28 2011, 01:42 AM   #39
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Seven was a great concept for a character, but she was sabotaged with the idiotic catsuit. That undermined any credibility she might have had as a real character and just made her an object and a smutty joke.
I could see this point years ago when she was first added, but at some point down the line it dawned on me that given she spent her adult life in a borg suit I can actually see how it would make sense she would choose something that is as close to that as possible. Those of us that think of it as a catsuit haven't really thought about how a borg existed in rubber latex looking body cases. If you're coming out of borg existence, that might be the most 'efficient' article of clothing to choose. It covers the skin. All that's needed. Sure, it was for sex appeal, but given how Seven was all about efficiency, I can see the appeal of it. Nothing to fuss with ever.
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Old September 28 2011, 11:37 PM   #40
ToddPence
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

"Threshold" was not nearly as bad as "Sacred Ground".
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Old September 29 2011, 08:44 PM   #41
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

"Threshold" was the worst ST episode ever. It failed on so many levels! I could name MANY individual things. Here is just one... when they were turned back into humans they had no visible sign that they had ever been changed at all... they still had hair, fingernails, eye lashes... even make up! WTF?
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Old September 29 2011, 08:59 PM   #42
Charles Phipps
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

What bothers me isn't that Kes left.

It's that Kes left when she was obviously possessed of a lot more dramatic potential. The damn time episode showed a ****load of interesting stories that could have been done with her.

They just...didn't.

I feel the same about Robert Beltrane and Chakotay. Everyone complains about Harry Kim not getting enough development but after his "Seska-baby" plot, did he REALLY have anything to do?
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Old September 29 2011, 09:05 PM   #43
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Seven was a great concept for a character, but she was sabotaged with the idiotic catsuit. That undermined any credibility she might have had as a real character and just made her an object and a smutty joke.
I could see this point years ago when she was first added, but at some point down the line it dawned on me that given she spent her adult life in a borg suit I can actually see how it would make sense she would choose something that is as close to that as possible. Those of us that think of it as a catsuit haven't really thought about how a borg existed in rubber latex looking body cases. If you're coming out of borg existence, that might be the most 'efficient' article of clothing to choose. It covers the skin. All that's needed. Sure, it was for sex appeal, but given how Seven was all about efficiency, I can see the appeal of it. Nothing to fuss with ever.
And the high heels...?
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Old September 30 2011, 03:26 AM   #44
exodus
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
I agree that Seven really was a great addition. Possibly the greatest cast addition to any show I can remember. However, Kes had so much more to offer. Don't know why they had to get rid of her. Idiot should've tossed Kim. I don't care what poll had him in the top ten. How many women have ever STOPPED watching a show because some supposedly hot character left? Seriously? Perhaps if it was some kind of pivotal character, but even then, we're far less likely to stop watching and lord knows it's not as if he was gaining any viewers.
Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.
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Old September 30 2011, 09:02 PM   #45
starlitegirl
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Re: Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.
You missed the point entirely. You toss out a list of shows that lost their KEY stars and compare it to what I'm saying? In my post I said 'perhaps if he was some kind of pivotal character' which he was not in any shape form or size, yet most every show you use has key characters leaving:

Charlie Sheen - star of the show

Duchovny - star of the show

Anderson - star of the show

CSI - Grissom was the star of it despite it being an ensemble.

Spin City - Fox was the show! The show was made for him after his stellar performance in An American President.

Law and Order - Which character? Which season? They had so many exits over the years I lost track. So please pick one and keep in mind that this show ran for just shy of 20 years. Figure a two year decline toward the end before cancellation and there is not one character that could have possibly caused some huge decline given there were so many cast changes over the years.

Harry Kim would have not been missed if Kes wasn't missed. Kes played a larger part in the show while kim was on the sidelines. He quite possibly had the least screen time of all the characters. So we're talking apples and oranges since I did say provided they weren't a key character.

Edited to add that you also have not figured into the equation that most of the shows you listed were fairly big hits. Voyager was never a huge hit. It wasn't even on a major network.
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