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Old September 19 2011, 09:32 PM   #76
Kass18
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I always got the impression that Janeway wasn't interested. Even when they were on the planet with no expectation of leaving, she wasn't that interested. Also, it's not uncommon for people who have known each other for years to suddenly shift gear into a romantic relationship. I know a few couples in my own small circle of friends who have done this.
Oh she was interested alright. I saw it and not just on New Earth. You could sense the sexual tension from across the bridge. It's a natural thing I mean...It's Chakotay....
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Old September 19 2011, 09:39 PM   #77
Markira
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Kass18 wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I always got the impression that Janeway wasn't interested. Even when they were on the planet with no expectation of leaving, she wasn't that interested. Also, it's not uncommon for people who have known each other for years to suddenly shift gear into a romantic relationship. I know a few couples in my own small circle of friends who have done this.
Oh she was interested alright. I saw it and not just on New Earth. You could sense the sexual tension from across the bridge. It's a natural thing I mean...It's Chakotay....


It was most definitely present, and m yimpression was that Janeway fought her attraction to him in favor of getting her job done. I mean, I can't say I'd be good with just a taste, either...if she'd got it on once with Chakotay, she'd probably want some more...and more...and more...
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Old September 19 2011, 10:00 PM   #78
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

There was no reason to play with that monkey.

It was Janeway's subconscious defending her own virtue.

The selfcoochblock is usually seen as a dickmove, but I'm thinking that it was necessary becuase even if they weren't going to be rescued, if she gave it up to the Indian, he would get bored and move to the other side of the planet.

Only by keeping what's between her legs a celebrated mystery would Citizen Janeway be able to maintain a healthy relationship with Chakotay, and by healthy I mean, I mean that he keeps doing what she says without having to beat obedience into him.

Hmmm.

You know, why didn't Janeway take the monkey off world and away from her?

It was clearly her pet.

Kathy would only leave it behind if she thought of that monkey as an equal and a friend.

Imagine how the rest of the series would have played out if Kathy had a pet monkey?

Imagine all the potential hero moments where the monkey might sacrifice itself to defend it's mistress?

Although, those buggers from Scientific method would have totally gone to town if they had a monkey to put under the knife, or imagine some of the crew complaining... "This you did this to me!? This!? You mutilated me! I'm a freak! ...But the bloody monkey gets a free pass? Bastards! Bastards! Bastards!"
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Old September 19 2011, 10:25 PM   #79
Kass18
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There was no reason to play with that monkey.

It was Janeway's subconscious defending her own virtue.

The selfcoochblock is usually seen as a dickmove, but I'm thinking that it was necessary becuase even if they weren't going to be rescued, if she gave it up to the Indian, he would get bored and move to the other side of the planet.

Only by keeping what's between her legs a celebrated mystery would Citizen Janeway be able to maintain a healthy relationship with Chakotay, and by healthy I mean, I mean that he keeps doing what she says without having to beat obedience into him.
They were the only people on the planet, they needed each other for survival and who would want to be alone in a time like that?

They certainly had feelings for each other then, and not by a relationship of 'Captain and Commander' since that was well past them now like Janeway had said when clearing up after the storm, and also shown when he was on first name basis with her.

When things became awkward between them, she wanted to 'define parameters' but didn't expect for him to confess the true extent of his feelings towards her by the 'Angry Warrior story' and was surprised to hear he had such strong feelings and what did she do? she cried and held his hand rather intimately, that pretty much tell's you that they were about to cross the line between friends and enter into something more. But as the story of that went it was done without proof, so really it is up to what you perceive of that situation.

Personally I believe something more happened after that, but you can believe what you want. That episode was a way to 'throw a bone' to the J/C fans without upsetting those who disapproved.

Either way they were in it together, whether they were friends or lovers. They couldn't make it a life time on New Earth without one another, it's as simple as that.
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Old September 19 2011, 11:38 PM   #80
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Kass18 wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There was no reason to play with that monkey.

It was Janeway's subconscious defending her own virtue.

The selfcoochblock is usually seen as a dickmove, but I'm thinking that it was necessary becuase even if they weren't going to be rescued, if she gave it up to the Indian, he would get bored and move to the other side of the planet.

Only by keeping what's between her legs a celebrated mystery would Citizen Janeway be able to maintain a healthy relationship with Chakotay, and by healthy I mean, I mean that he keeps doing what she says without having to beat obedience into him.
They were the only people on the planet, they needed each other for survival and who would want to be alone in a time like that?

They certainly had feelings for each other then, and not by a relationship of 'Captain and Commander' since that was well past them now like Janeway had said when clearing up after the storm, and also shown when he was on first name basis with her.

When things became awkward between them, she wanted to 'define parameters' but didn't expect for him to confess the true extent of his feelings towards her by the 'Angry Warrior story' and was surprised to hear he had such strong feelings and what did she do? she cried and held his hand rather intimately, that pretty much tell's you that they were about to cross the line between friends and enter into something more. But as the story of that went it was done without proof, so really it is up to what you perceive of that situation.

Personally I believe something more happened after that, but you can believe what you want. That episode was a way to 'throw a bone' to the J/C fans without upsetting those who disapproved.

Either way they were in it together, whether they were friends or lovers. They couldn't make it a life time on New Earth without one another, it's as simple as that.
What Kass said!

I love that scene, after the neck massage, where she's lying in bed and she seems to be taking her own temperature with that hand to the forehead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8dS9xfKI#t=76s

Guy, sometimes I really worry about what you consider is "healthy".






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Old September 20 2011, 12:13 AM   #81
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Your average healthy man tries to masturbate 4 to 6 times a day, but can only usually find time and privacy to get away with this solitary recreational thrill maybe twice a day.

That's a conservative estimate for a male surrounded by millions of human beings with extensive distracting duties and obligations.

I think it's safe to say that Chakotay had free and unrestricted reign of his personal space if Kathryn was so busy with her monkey that she failed to notice him landscaping and building a spa resort under her very pretty little nose.

So he probably masturbated almost 400 times during their 60 day vacation from Voyager.

The logical conclusions of this supposition...

a. Chakotay didn't have the energy left to pursue her, what with all his needs being satisfied, that what she had to offer was redundant because of his intensive affection self supplied.

b. If there's anything a thousand shows called CSI have taught us is that as she was living inbetween hundreds of overlapping "crime scenes" that she must have noticed some evidence of his hobby, but pretended not to understand, and that it was this monster sized denial which grew into the most encompassing iron curtain that is the real reason she spent so much time with her monkey. Cause and effect.

c. Kathryn's ability to not think about him like that was absolute, so it's just precious that she didn't understand the mystery of the 1001 vanishing hand towels.

d. Whether he was aware or not, Kathryn kept catching him in the act. Was he careless, or was it an even clumsier invitation to participate than the Angry warrior Speech? In either case he was an idiot and if she had to spend her time with some bloke who can't stop touching himself, she picked the monkey.

e. She was frightened, that if he did that to himself 200 times a month then she might have to have that be done to herself 200 times a month, and she just wasn't prepared for that sort of stress on her middle extremities after opting for the last two years to cross her legs and wait for Mark.

f. What was he using as a mental aid? Did he have PADD porn, or a healthy imagination stocked by a wankbank clearly in the black? In one case he was cheating on her with many other women, or one special lady he was obsessed with, who was probably most certainly her, although not the "real" her, which was intellectual property theft at best and rape by proxy at worst, neither action of which is worth rewarding with an adult relationship.

G. His peyote machine that creates a borglike hive mind where they can have lucid dreams in completely program-able environments is without a doubt a knocking shop by another name, but for "spiritual" reasons, no matter how many spirit guides he nails (Furries represent?), Chakotay wouldn't let her abuse/debase this religious artefact with her own thoughts on romance and release, which is if you think about it a sort of ransom by a sort of emotional terrorist. Only a fool negotiates with terrorists. (If the saftey protocols on a Federation replicator won't produce "chocolate" I think it's highly unlikely that she fabricate her own peyote machine in the camp on New Earth, if she didn't think to mock one up before leaving Voyager.) he had her over a barrel and she doesn't like bullies. She'd eventually beat him into a coma to get that peyote machine because she is a good person who he should share his possessions with

h. She can smell the sex on him. The constant odour permeating off his pants must make the lady roll her eyes and yawn about how predictable and simple men are, that there's no way that she could respect him enough to take him on as a lover if he can't escape perpetuating a farcical caricature.

i. In all likely hood, she was rubbing one out as often and as skilfully as he was on the the opposite side of the camp. They probably subconsciously worked out a scheduling rotor to clockworkilly avoid accidents, but if "point A" was that he was too buggered, then "point G" is that she was just as buggered. They were double buggered. (Buggered just means tired. It's a homonym.)

j. Janeway didn't want to ruin it for him? Really after a night with his dream girl, how is he supposed to go back to playing with his monkey? That's just rude. Besides he'd be chemically dependant on himself and any attempt to reacclimatize his metabolism for just and only relationship-sex might kill him if he comes down too cold turkey. She probably likes him too much as a friend to break him like that.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; September 20 2011 at 12:26 AM.
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Old September 20 2011, 12:31 AM   #82
Kass18
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Your average healthy man tries to masturbate 4 to 6 times a day, but can only usually find time and privacy to get away with this solitary recreational thrill maybe twice a day.

That's a conservative estimate for a male surrounded by millions of human beings with extensive distracting duties and obligations.

I think it's safe to say that Chakotay had free and unrestricted reign of his personal space if Kathryn was so busy with her monkey that she failed to notice him landscaping and building a spa resort under her very pretty little nose.

So he probably masturbated almost 400 times during their 60 day vacation from Voyager.

The logical conclusions of this supposition...

a. Chakotay didn't have the energy left to pursue her, what with all his needs being satisfied, that what she had to offer was redundant because of his intensive affection self supplied.

b. If there's anything a thousand shows called CSI have taught us is that as she was living inbetween hundreds of overlapping "crime scenes" that she must have noticed some evidence of his hobby, but pretended not to understand, and that it was this monster sized denial which grew into the most encompassing iron curtain that is the real reason she spent so much time with her monkey. Cause and effect.

c. Kathryn's ability to not think about him like that was absolute, so it's just precious that she didn't understand the mystery of the 1001 vanishing hand towels.

d. Whether he was aware or not, Kathryn kept catching him in the act. Was he careless, or was it an even clumsier invitation to participate than the Angry warrior Speech? In either case he was an idiot and if she had to spend her time with some bloke who can't stop touching himself, she picked the monkey.

e. She was frightened, that if he did that to himself 200 times a month then she might have to have that be done to herself 200 times a month, and she just wasn't prepared for that sort of stress on her middle extremities after opting for the last two years to cross her legs and wait for Mark.

f. What was he using as a mental aid? Did he have PADD porn, or a healthy imagination stocked by a wankbank clearly in the black? In one case he was cheating on her with many other women, or one special lady he was obsessed with, who was probably most certainly her, although not the "real" her, which was intellectual property theft at best and rape by proxy at worst, neither action of which is worth rewarding with an adult relationship.

G. His peyote machine that creates a borglike hive mind where they can have lucid dreams in completely program-able environments is without a doubt a knocking shop by another name, but for "spiritual" reasons, no matter how many spirit guides he nails (Furries represent?), Chakotay wouldn't let her abuse/debase this religious artefact with her own thoughts on romance and release, which is if you think about it a sort of ransom by a sort of emotional terrorist. Only a fool negotiates with terrorists. (If the saftey protocols on a Federation replicator won't produce "chocolate" I think it's highly unlikely that she fabricate her own peyote machine in the camp on New Earth, if she didn't think to mock one up before leaving Voyager.) he had her over a barrel and she doesn't like bullies. She'd eventually beat him into a coma to get that peyote machine because she is a good person who he should share his possessions with

h. She can smell the sex on him. The constant odour permeating off his pants must make the lady roll her eyes and yawn about how predictable and simple men are, that there's no way that she could respect him enough to take him on as a lover if he can't escape perpetuating a farcical caricature.

i. In all likely hood, she was rubbing one out as often and as skilfully as he was on the the opposite side of the camp. They probably subconsciously worked out a scheduling rotor to clockworkilly avoid accidents, but if "point A" was that he was too buggered, then "point G" is that she was just as buggered. They were double buggered. (Buggered just means tired. It's a homonym.)

j. Janeway didn't want to ruin it for him? Really after a night with his dream girl, how is he supposed to go back to playing with his monkey? That's just rude. Besides he'd be chemically dependant on himself and any attempt to reacclimatize his metabolism for just and only relationship-sex might kill him if he comes down too cold turkey. She probably likes him too much as a friend to break him like that.
How does the discussion thread of 'Why did Chakotay choose to be with Seven instead of Janeway?' turn into 'Why did Chakotay choose to masturbate to himself instead of be with Janeway?

And I'm fairly certain they mentioned that the monkey came and went a couple of times. It wasn't a regular pet they kept. I highly doubt Janeway spent much time with the moneky at all because it just kept running away/stood there and wouldn't let her get to close to it.

I may be J/C defensive here but in no way do I see Chakotay having such a weakness for being alone with Kathryn on New Earth that he has to masturbate 400 times a day. They didn't really need to persue one other, they were the only one's on the planet, if it happened it happened. But I don't think that Chakotay would have lost his sanity just because he couldn't get any with Kathryn.
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Old September 20 2011, 01:11 AM   #83
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

400 times a day?

Really?

24 thousand times in 2 months.

Really?

That's 16 times an hour.

4 times a minute.

Once every 15 seconds.

...

I wasn't assuming that Chakotay was playing with himself much more or less because he was marooned on a deserted planet, or that she was trapped on a deserted planet with Janeway.

It's just what men do when they are inside or outside a relationship or getting it regular from another person or people. A natural drive that will persist no matter the obstacle.

There wasn't a sexual vacuum on New Earth no matter the limts Janeway thought she was imposing.

"sigh"
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Old September 20 2011, 02:13 AM   #84
Kass18
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Potato, potato. Well like I said the episode is based on your own perception. I'm keeping with the J/C version, but I guess you'll keep to the Chakotay masturbating version. All is fair.
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Old September 20 2011, 02:41 AM   #85
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

But it isn't just Resolutions.

Its every man in every episode in every series.

(Except Kirk. But that explains much.)

This revelation doesn't preclude J/C.

In some ways it helps.

Remember There's Something about Mary?

"You don't walk about with a fully loaded weapon".

Chakotay would be less of an idiot dog, and more likely to seem like an eligible mate if his penis doesn't have the strength to take command and throw him at every piece of presented tail.

Considering the XO's continual perpetual state of serenity it's likely that his lizard is almost always drained.
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Old September 20 2011, 02:51 AM   #86
exodus
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Kass18 wrote: View Post
Potato, potato. Well like I said the episode is based on your own perception. I'm keeping with the J/C version, but I guess you'll keep to the Chakotay masturbating version. All is fair.
Guy is buggin'.
No way is a man over 40 masturbating 4 to 6 times a day.
Older libido doesn't allow it.
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Old September 20 2011, 04:38 AM   #87
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

It's like that old philosophical conundrum: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" the answer to which is obviously "As many as want to."

Even though I did say that he'd want to jerk off 4 to 6 times a day but it's only logistically possible to get away with doing it twice, I quickly forgot I had said that as I started tapping away with my calculator...

It's a question of balance.

If Chuckles, because of his extreme age (giggle) only needs to choke his chicken once a month and he doesn't, he will be out of whack, off centre and in trouble. Then, because all men are liars, there's also this major deficit between between wants and needs that he might be chewing off more than he can swallow.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Equilibrium and harmony.
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Old September 20 2011, 07:52 AM   #88
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

exodus wrote: View Post
Kass18 wrote: View Post
Potato, potato. Well like I said the episode is based on your own perception. I'm keeping with the J/C version, but I guess you'll keep to the Chakotay masturbating version. All is fair.
Guy is buggin'.
No way is a man over 40 masturbating 4 to 6 times a day.
Older libido doesn't allow it.
Plus he'd be completely blind.
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Old September 20 2011, 06:57 PM   #89
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Anyway Guy's theory, colourful as always, isn't necessary if you accept the fact that she wasn't going to jeapordise her authority, even stuck on a planet with him. It just wasn't in her makeup to have an affair with one of her own senior officers. He knew it too. Maybe if he'd had a couple of years to work on her on their own but even then I doubt it. That's what I mean by 'not interested'. What I should have said is 'not interested enough to lose her self-control'.
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Old September 20 2011, 08:46 PM   #90
Kass18
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Ah but the important thing is that she needed self-control in the first place! Hello feelings! And who wouldn't, cause it's Chakotay

But i'll give her props for restraining against him all the way to the Alpha Quadrant, my self-control certainly would not exceed that
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