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Old September 10 2011, 08:52 PM   #76
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
If the writers weren't devoting time to develope main of the main cast, what good would having a secondary cast do? That's not fixing the problem, it's ignoring and using a temporary distraction in hopes of fooling the audience. That was Voyager's main problem to begin with.

Everybody seems to be avoiding the truth.
Yes, Voyager's writers weren't always the greatest.
However, many of Voyager's characters were underdeveloped because Paramount spent money to promote the show using Seven. Mulgrew & Picardo, the two divas were both fighting for equal screen time as her. Too keep the two of them happy, they gave them what they asked for which left no room for anyone else in the cast. The rest of the cast go shafted due to jealousy and ego.
I'll blame the writers.

I'm not saying it wasn't an issue that they basically turned the rest of the cast into the equivalent of CSI staff. It just happened to work out well for me because I favored those characters. But I don't think it was due to ego. I think it was partially due to the limitations of the characters set up very early in the show.

From the initial season, Janeway, Doc, and Kes had the most screen time. Episodes were devoted to other characters, however, given the nature that Janeway was the captain, she was ALWAYS going to have a high amount of screen time. Can't change that. It's silly to even try. Every Trek series has always devoted a good amount of screen time to the Captian. Doc was also always going to be a key because in enough of the episodes, he comes into play. Partly for his hologram nature and jokes centered around him. Partly because he was the doc. He was the equivalent of Data only in the role of the doc. Consider making Crusher a hologram or android in TNG and right off the bat, there's a lot of screen time. Crusher or a doc was in most every episode. Same for Data. Combine them and by default there's a large amount of screen time going to him because there's really no way around it. When it's not a hologram thing, it's a medical thing. Kes and Seven were his Mentor then Student in that order. He was crucial in fleshing out both characters and they were crucial in fleshing him out. Consider the relationship between Geordi and Data. This is the same here. A fair amount of screen time was devoted to it due to the fact that the doc was a hologram. Had the writers had the foresight to see that making the rest of the crew dislike the Doc from the start was narrowing their options, then others would have gotten more time with the doc and more involvement in his development over time for at least the first three years.
Mulgrew & Picardo openly admit and never denied going to the producers to have more screen time and larger roles in the series. It's comon knowledge that Mulgrew felt threatened by the introduction of Ryan and how they used Seven instead of Janeway to promote Voyager. Mulgrew felt as if she were being replaced as the main draw to the series. Based on those facts, neither Mulgrew nor Picardo felt as you do in regards to the amount of screen time their characters would receive.

Kes has never had equal screen time to that of Janeway or the Doc. Even during the first 3 seasons when the cast was a more balanced ensemble, Kes had lesser screen time compared to that of her co-stars. Due to that, IMO that's why it was so easy to cut her ties to the cast when it came time to write her out.
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Old September 10 2011, 09:54 PM   #77
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

exodus wrote: View Post
Mulgrew & Picardo openly admit and never denied going to the producers to have more screen time and larger roles in the series. It's comon knowledge that Mulgrew felt threatened by the introduction of Ryan and how they used Seven instead of Janeway to promote Voyager. Mulgrew felt as if she were being replaced as the main draw to the series. Based on those facts, neither Mulgrew nor Picardo felt as you do in regards to the amount of screen time their characters would receive.
Doesn't matter to me how it happened really. I like season 4-7 the most and mainly because of them. I'm glad they pushed for more time. Good for them. It worked out well for me since I loved their character.
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Old September 11 2011, 01:28 AM   #78
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Mulgrew & Picardo openly admit and never denied going to the producers to have more screen time and larger roles in the series. It's comon knowledge that Mulgrew felt threatened by the introduction of Ryan and how they used Seven instead of Janeway to promote Voyager. Mulgrew felt as if she were being replaced as the main draw to the series. Based on those facts, neither Mulgrew nor Picardo felt as you do in regards to the amount of screen time their characters would receive.
Doesn't matter to me how it happened really. I like season 4-7 the most and mainly because of them. I'm glad they pushed for more time. Good for them. It worked out well for me since I loved their character.
Sorry, I was here to talk about the topic.

Thanks.
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Old September 11 2011, 03:51 AM   #79
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

I think Tuvok was physically underdeveloped.

They should have been using SFX to illustrate what it looks like when someone is 3 times stronger than a reasonably hefty human being starts pushing his weight around.

Tuvok should have been able to grab by the ankles and use a fully grown Kazon like a base ball bat to club other Kazon into mush.
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Old September 15 2011, 06:34 PM   #80
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

The problem for me was partially the characters / development, but partially the cast.

In DS9 difficult to take to characters really grew on me through the strength of the writing and some great performances - i.e. Sisko, Kira and Odo. Even supporting characters like Garak and Rom came into their own.

In Voyager, Janeway, Tuvok, Torres and Neelix ended the series just as unlikeable as when it started, and the majority of the rest of the cast were just making up the numbers.

Paris and Seven were OK, Chakotay could have been interesting but really wasn't, Kes was insipid and Harry was bland. The only character I really liked was the Doctor...
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Old September 15 2011, 09:39 PM   #81
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
The problem for me was partially the characters / development, but partially the cast.

In DS9 difficult to take to characters really grew on me through the strength of the writing and some great performances - i.e. Sisko, Kira and Odo. Even supporting characters like Garak and Rom came into their own.

In Voyager, Janeway, Tuvok, Torres and Neelix ended the series just as unlikeable as when it started, and the majority of the rest of the cast were just making up the numbers.

Paris and Seven were OK, Chakotay could have been interesting but really wasn't, Kes was insipid and Harry was bland. The only character I really liked was the Doctor...
I do agree that the doctor is funny ,,,, and chakotay is a very interesting character as well maybe it was an inspiring as Harry but he was bland I do agree there,, and Seven is very interesting character as well,,, Sisko Cara and Odo,, are very supportive characters have very strong,,, Garak and Rom honestly came their own characters,,, in DS9 but even Voyager's characters are pretty inspiring as well with all due honesty,., From the beginning of Star Trek,,, to the ending of Star Trek,, and all the things are in between,,, they all have a place,,, In thier acting skill,..
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Old September 17 2011, 02:13 AM   #82
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
The problem for me was partially the characters / development, but partially the cast.

In DS9 difficult to take to characters really grew on me through the strength of the writing and some great performances - i.e. Sisko, Kira and Odo. Even supporting characters like Garak and Rom came into their own.
IMO honestly, I still find characters like Torres and Janeway more believable than the the development they gave Garak or Rom. Outside the context of DS9, they're cliches. A trained assassin from birth suddenly has ethics and morals to help those he grew up hating to help win the war? A idiot that by relation becomes the leader of his entire race? Development or not, that type of stuff is never going to happen outside fiction. While entertaining, the paths their lives took are complete B.S. Torres, Neelix and Janeway are much more realistic because personal and emotional issues usually are a life long battle you learn to deal with on a daily basis and that life continues without some great reward.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:33 AM   #83
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Anwar wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.
DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.
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Last edited by Gotham Central; September 17 2011 at 02:49 AM.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:40 AM   #84
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

And DS9 had the Dominion War as a big plot device to frame plots around and use to develop characters, while VOY had nothing like that to drive the plot because the premise wouldn't allow it.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:44 AM   #85
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.
I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:54 AM   #86
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

exodus wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.
I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.
The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:57 AM   #87
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.
DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.
If you've got main cast members like Tuvok & Chakotay being underwritten, why would you still turn you're back on actors you're paying top dollar for to focus on characters and actors you're only paying minimum for? Do you think it's fair to Tim Russ & Robert Beltran to be overlooked for lesser actors?
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Old September 17 2011, 03:00 AM   #88
Gotham Central
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

And DS9 had the Dominion War as a big plot device to frame plots around and use to develop characters, while VOY had nothing like that to drive the plot because the premise wouldn't allow it.
This is your usual cop out. Voyager was supposed to be about a single ship with a divided crew struggling to survive in hostile space while trying to get home. How is that NOT an environment for cultivating interesting characters. How is that less a challenging environment than a war zone? In fact...more than a few Voyager episodes devolved into war situations.

You are just excusing lazy writing.
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Old September 17 2011, 03:03 AM   #89
exodus
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.
I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.
The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.
So what?
Why would you take time on development of a secondary cast if you can't devote time and development to the main cast? DS9 could develope others because they had already taken the time to flesh out the main cast before the secondary.
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Old September 17 2011, 03:05 AM   #90
Gotham Central
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

exodus wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.
If you've got main cast members like Tuvok & Chakotay being underwritten, why would you still turn you're back on actors you're paying top dollar for to focus on characters and actors you're only paying minimum for? Do you think it's fair to Tim Russ & Robert Beltran to be overlooked for lesser actors?
Your question has merit in as far as it supports my thesis that the writers on Voyager were either incredibly inept or just plain lazy. Neither of which reflects well on the series.
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