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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 16 2011, 03:16 PM   #151
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

AviTrek wrote: View Post
Squiggy, there are easy shots and there are hard shots. I'm sure a lot of the shots are easy to crop. The problem is, you need to crop every shot of every episode. All it takes is one or two shot that are too difficult to crop and it ruins the entire episode.

If you check this thread, I submitted a couple trickier shots. Someone tried to make them 16x9, but the results were noticeably crowded and worse than the original.
Actually, that's subjective (as anything dealing with this would be), but I think the first attempt shot is pretty good. Here's my go at it:

AviTrek wrote: View Post
scotthm wrote: View Post
BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
If they screw this up with widescreen, my enthusiasm for this project goes from 110% to 0%.
My enthusiasm would go from 20% to 80% if it is a well done widescreen conversion.

If people want to watch it in "widescreen" they can hit the crop button on their remote, instead of chopping off part of the picture permanently.
If it can be done well, it will be at the hands of professionals and not your television. The part of the picture that gets cropped is unlikely to have anything more interesting going on than the additional image on the sides has.

---------------
I challenge anyone claiming that a widescreen crop could be done, to produce a decent looking crop of the following two fairly standard shots.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...deffect289.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...deffect380.jpg
I'll take your second one first. Riker was speaking therefore he was the center of attention:


As for your first one, it depends on who's currently talking...if Riker or Worf then this:


If Picard or Troi then this:


If all for are having a go at it then you're going to either use the Riker/Worf framing or do a vertical P&S.
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Old September 16 2011, 03:20 PM   #152
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

RAMA wrote: View Post
Someone posted this over at trekmovie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtE8afwJEg

http://trekmovie.com/2011/09/14/new-...oject/#3888412

Seam carving is a way to seamlessly make 4:3 look like 16:9 with little or no noticeable distortion.
Very interesting. It seems a bit like PhotoShop's content aware scaling.

One thing I had always wondered was if it was possible to use frames that come before and after as a reference for recontructing a 4:3 shot into 16:9 without losing or distorting the original. It seems like seam carving might be what I was thinking about.
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Old September 16 2011, 03:24 PM   #153
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Someone posted this over at trekmovie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtE8afwJEg

http://trekmovie.com/2011/09/14/new-...oject/#3888412

Seam carving is a way to seamlessly make 4:3 look like 16:9 with little or no noticeable distortion.
Very interesting. It seems a bit like PhotoShop's content aware scaling.

One thing I had always wondered was if it was possible to use frames that come before and after as a reference for recontructing a 4:3 shot into 16:9 without losing or distorting the original. It seems like seam carving might be what I was thinking about.
Theoretically possible. Depends on the lens.
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Old September 16 2011, 03:25 PM   #154
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

No cropping, please. If I'm paying for the whole series, I don't want 30% of it missing, thanks!
If you want your screen filled for whatever bizarre reason, then use the zoom function on it, rather than vandalising the show for everyone else.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Well, if they have to scan the film reels, they have to redo the cropping for every shot anyway.
"Redoing" the cropping isn't what takes time or effort. That would be automated. As I understand it, the show was filmed 4:3 with safe zones. They'll simply match the original crop.

Creatively "reframing" the whole show for 16:9 would take time (and therefore money), and would probably look terrible anyway.
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Old September 16 2011, 03:32 PM   #155
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
No cropping, please. If I'm paying for the whole series, I don't want 30% of it missing, thanks!
Do you feel the same way when you buy a movie and aren't getting the whole thing?
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Old September 16 2011, 03:37 PM   #156
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
Do you feel the same way when you buy a movie and aren't getting the whole thing?
I don't think I ever have, but I'm sure I would.
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Old September 16 2011, 03:47 PM   #157
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Squiggy wrote: View Post
Do you feel the same way when you buy a movie and aren't getting the whole thing?
I don't think I ever have, but I'm sure I would.
Because you rarely are. Unless you're watching a movie letterboxed, you're not getting the entire thing. Even if you watch a movie in a fill 16:9 screen you're not getting the entire movie as movies are 1.85:1. (or 5.55:3 or 16.65:9)
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Old September 16 2011, 03:53 PM   #158
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

I watch all movies in their original aspect ratio if possible..
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Old September 16 2011, 11:28 PM   #159
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
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I don't know if making 4:3 image to 16:9 is worth it. The didn't do it for TOS, why do it for TNG? It looks awful for the HD Friends/Seinfeld 'explosions'. (I'm assuming TNG wasn't show in 16:9, like B5 was).
I made these a while back to show how cropping wouldn't negatively impact the show.

Here's the originally framed 4:3 shot


And the HDified 16:9


Another shot, old school:


And new hotness:


The "meat" of the action has been, and will always be in the center section of the screen. Losing the background on top and the foreground on the bottom wouldn't really negatively impact the plot, feel, or "director's vision".

Plus, lot of people just like having the entirety of their TV that they paid a lot of money for filled with exciting colors and moving images. Double if they paid hundreds of dollars for the full TNG-HD box set.

These are quite good, and don't even include the overscan image, which adds a little information horizontally to what you ahve here.
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Old September 16 2011, 11:31 PM   #160
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
I watch all movies in their original aspect ratio if possible..

Generally his isn't a bad idea, I prefer letterboxed to pan and scan obviously, but the TATV example, Seinfeld (I prefer the 16:9), the examples from Ex Astris Scientia with only a minor 5.8% stretch, and the examples shown on this thread, really make feel satisfied with a 16:9 showing.

You also gain some image...



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Old September 17 2011, 01:02 AM   #161
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Cropped, not cropped, whatever I just want it nooooooow

hehe
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Old September 17 2011, 01:21 AM   #162
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
I'll take your second one first. Riker was speaking therefore he was the center of attention:


As for your first one, it depends on who's currently talking...if Riker or Worf then this:


If Picard or Troi then this:


If all for are having a go at it then you're going to either use the Riker/Worf framing or do a vertical P&S.
The latter shot is wretched in both crops. Either it's placed the lead too close to the bottom of the frame or it cuts off Worf and the top of Riker's head. They're both compositionally bad.
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Old September 17 2011, 02:00 AM   #163
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
Start Wreck wrote: View Post
No cropping, please. If I'm paying for the whole series, I don't want 30% of it missing, thanks!
Do you feel the same way when you buy a movie and aren't getting the whole thing?
Yes sir, I certainly did, and would seek out the full letterboxed version when ever there was one available (Bless you Steven).
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Old September 17 2011, 02:08 AM   #164
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Squiggy wrote: View Post
Do you feel the same way when you buy a movie and aren't getting the whole thing?
I don't think I ever have, but I'm sure I would.
Because you rarely are. Unless you're watching a movie letterboxed, you're not getting the entire thing. Even if you watch a movie in a fill 16:9 screen you're not getting the entire movie as movies are 1.85:1. (or 5.55:3 or 16.65:9)
While its true that rarely did you ever get the full cinemascope aspect ration for most films on home release (there are a couple, thank god).

But even when it isn't an exact match I prefer to get my home release to be as close as possible (ie best that's available) to the original aspect.

BUt there are two huge differences between tv and general films over the decades.

In many cases films (that I watched at the movies) weren't screened in full (ie partially cropped to fit the theatre screen). So when I got a film 16:9 it didn't seem so obvious.

And unlike most films, this is Trek. Meaning I have seen every single bloody episode many times. From episodes I hate maybe only viewed ten or so times over the decades to episodes that I have watched literally hundreds of times.

The more familiar you are the more noticeable any significant aspect changes will be in your viewing habits. And frankly nothing is more familiar to me then televised Trek.
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Old September 17 2011, 11:11 AM   #165
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Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Squiggy wrote: View Post
I made these a while back to show how cropping wouldn't negatively impact the show.

Here's the originally framed 4:3 shot

Another shot, old school:


And new hotness:


The "meat" of the action has been, and will always be in the center section of the screen. Losing the background on top and the foreground on the bottom wouldn't really negatively impact the plot, feel, or "director's vision".
Maybe it wouldn't, but cropping the show in this way doesn't add anything either. Sure, there will always be people complaining about the pillar boxes at the sides of the screen. They're the exact same kind of people that don't understand why there are bars at the top and bottom of 2.35.1 movies. This project is about preserving this show for a next generation of fans. And IMO it should be preserved in its original aspect ratio, like TOS and classic movies like Citizen Kane and Gone With The Wind.

Plus, lot of people just like having the entirety of their TV that they paid a lot of money for filled with exciting colors and moving images. Double if they paid hundreds of dollars for the full TNG-HD box set.
Tell me, who are gonna buy these episodes on BD? Trek fans and home theatre enthusiasts. They all know that TNG wasn't produced in widescreen. So I don't think that a lot of people expect or want their TNG full widescreen.
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