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Old September 11 2011, 02:59 AM   #46
froot
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

^ Oh, Guy.

exodus wrote: View Post
I thought the question being asked was hypothetical?
Was it? I dunno. I just know that's not really the story. Nor are most of the rumors about chest-thumping and all that. I think the writers just wanted to give the characters something to do, and chose very poorly.

exodus wrote: View Post
Fang66 wrote: View Post
froot wrote: View Post
These ass-backwards priorities would work on a character that's a 13-year-old kid in our time, but since these are mature adults who live in the enlightened 24th century where hopefully Looks (and perceived amounts of testosterone) Aren't Everything, I'm going to go ahead and say the question isn't what's ludicrously stupid here.
Rubbish, pure sexual attraction is a major theme of Star Trek in the 23rd and 24th centuries. Biology won't change in 2 or 3 hundred years. 7 is much more physically attractive than Janeway so unless 7 has some major and I mean major character flaws then it is beyond ludicrous to think that Chakotay would actually even consider the sour faced hag Janeway over 7.
Recognizing prejudice is also a major theme in Trek.
Kes loved Neelix, Dax loved Worf, Leeta loves Rom.
Trek has shown several times that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and a doesn't determine relationships.
Especially in this day a age, woman Janeway's age are considered the new 30.
"A hag?"
Seriously?? What is this, a POPEYE cartoon?
Word.

Chakotay and Janeway are very close in age. Why would Chakotay consider someone his age old? Attraction or a fling can be based on looks, sure, but relationships don't last on crap like that very long. I can think of lots of "attractive" people I wouldn't want to marry. And hell, Seven's good looking, but isn't terribly emotionally mature when it comes to relationships. Isn't that reason enough to tread carefully?

I realize you're probably quite young, so perhaps arguing about this isn't quite fair when you obviously don't really get it. I've invented straw men with less silly arguments than yours.
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Old September 11 2011, 03:31 AM   #47
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

A Star Trek Exhibit I once saw on tour a few years back indicated that Deanna and Kathryn were the same age.

It not the years, it's the mileage.

It's not that Janeway was old during first run, but that it is that we were all much much much younger at the time, and we haven't lost many of the bigoted first impressions we generated back in the nineties even though in reruns Janeway is starting to look younger than we are.

I'm shocked that Kathy isn't some old lady any more in reruns.
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Old September 11 2011, 12:34 PM   #48
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Janeway looked so much better with the short hair and some more color to it. That bun didn't do her any favors. I think part of the age thing is also in how they carry themselves. Belana has all that fire and attitude, so you don't really picture her being much older. Plus, the way she doubts herself is more like a young person not someone who has gained confidence with age. Janeway has a calm certainty to her that makes her feel older. There's a confidence about her. She exudes it.
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Old September 11 2011, 07:47 PM   #49
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Lorthos wrote: View Post
It seemed to me that Chakotay and janeway had a much better chemistry going on between them than him and seven. I just wonder why he chose her over janeway.
Because of incredible stupid writing.

Sorry, I've tried to come up with some "Trek Universe" theory but I can't. No chemistry or attraction at all between Seven and Chakotay.
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Old September 12 2011, 01:36 AM   #50
exodus
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Lynx wrote: View Post
Lorthos wrote: View Post
It seemed to me that Chakotay and janeway had a much better chemistry going on between them than him and seven. I just wonder why he chose her over janeway.
Because of incredible stupid writing.

Sorry, I've tried to come up with some "Trek Universe" theory but I can't. No chemistry or attraction at all between Seven and Chakotay.
Seven did have an attraction to Chakotay.
It was shown in her romantic holodeck scenarios.
However, it was Chakotay that never showed any interest in Seven.
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Old September 12 2011, 05:20 AM   #51
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Lorthos wrote: View Post
It seemed to me that Chakotay and janeway had a much better chemistry going on between them than him and seven. I just wonder why he chose her over janeway.
Because of incredible stupid writing.

Sorry, I've tried to come up with some "Trek Universe" theory but I can't. No chemistry or attraction at all between Seven and Chakotay.
Seven did have an attraction to Chakotay.
It was shown in her romantic holodeck scenarios.
However, it was Chakotay that never showed any interest in Seven.
That's true. I didn't think of that. Makes sense.
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Old September 12 2011, 02:15 PM   #52
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Seven was on the rebound from Axum in "Human Error".

I prefer to listen to the actress's comments on the C/7 anomaly.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...s-and-minuses/

and specifically, this passage...

The next episode that we shot after that (Natural Law), Seven and Chakotay were stranded on some planet together. We specifically asked the producers – Robert and I – “Now, are we going to play this? Is this going to go somewhere? Because, obviously, we’d need to carry something over from…’ And they said, ‘No, no, no, no! Absolutely not. Don’t play any of that. Nothing’s going to happen.’

Take away message from this... don't trust the producers.
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Old September 12 2011, 04:37 PM   #53
starlitegirl
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Seven was on the rebound from Axum in "Human Error".

I prefer to listen to the actress's comments on the C/7 anomaly.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...s-and-minuses/

and specifically, this passage...

The next episode that we shot after that (Natural Law), Seven and Chakotay were stranded on some planet together. We specifically asked the producers – Robert and I – “Now, are we going to play this? Is this going to go somewhere? Because, obviously, we’d need to carry something over from…’ And they said, ‘No, no, no, no! Absolutely not. Don’t play any of that. Nothing’s going to happen.’

Take away message from this... don't trust the producers.
Well somewhere along the way they changed their minds and it seems less natural because of it. IMHO, I don't find it completely unnatural given that there are plenty of people that can't stand each other at first that become great couples.

It's clear they were warming up to each other. He was encouraging her to look at things from his point of view and she was evolving because of that. So there's that, but the part that is off to me when I look at it objectively is that there was no ah-ha moment on Chakotay's end. We never see him actually come to a point where he develops feelings for her. We see it from her in the holodeck. She was exploring. But there was never that moment, like when Paris and Belana were floating in space. And it could have been done easily. A scene where she's injured and he realizes he's more concerned for her than he expected. The way the doc fixes these people up, that would have been easy to do. The lack of this type of moment from Chakotay does give it a contrived feel that I choose to omit from my brain.

I don't know. Sometimes the writers really pushed the whole suspension of disbelief factor a bit too far. Maybe they figured since it's scifi the audience will go along with ANYTHING, which implies that the really don't understand their audience all that much.
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Old September 12 2011, 05:21 PM   #54
AuntKate
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

I think the writers thought ANY man would be willing to jump Seven's bones, so why bother with explaining why Chakotay, who didn't like her and usually was condescending to her, suddenly changed his mind? And this is what is so irritating about it. They are both totally out of character, and the dialogue is actually painful to listen to. This relationship makes George Lucas's awful pairings look like a wildly successful romance novel by comparison.
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Old September 12 2011, 05:48 PM   #55
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

The sad thing is that all of the 4 dozen pools about who was going to bag the Borgette first or when she was going to give it up to the Indian, were rendered moot as soon as they got back to the AQ when holodeck time and replicator rations suddenly lost all scarcity and value whatsoever.

I feel personal woe for Chuckles since any wager he thought he was going to win to offset the horror of coupling with such an emotional retard was also suddenly zerosum.

Imagine you thought you were going to win 7 large on an under over from the big fight, but just before you're due to pick up the purse, your Bookie has a heart attack and passes on.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; September 12 2011 at 06:01 PM.
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Old September 12 2011, 07:05 PM   #56
creek_chub
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

AuntKate wrote: View Post
and the dialogue is actually painful to listen to.
This. I didn't watch the series while it was on, and I spoiled myself horribly when I finally did see it, so I knew C/7 was coming (and I wasn't looking forward to it) but even prepared for it the whole thing seemed to come out of nowhere. And hearing them speak together? I literally cringed.
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Old September 12 2011, 07:24 PM   #57
Admiral James Kirk
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Even when producers do try to build something it doesn't always work. Take Worf/Troi for example. That had ample buildup in season 7 of TNG but it didn't really work because there was no romantic or even sexual chemistry between Dorn and Sirtis. So even though they built to it the pairing still didn't work.

I also point to DS9 and Odo/Kira. That was built to for a good five or so years before it happened and there was pretty good chemistry between Vistor and Auberjonois but once they got together it all sort of fizzled. Odo/Kira worked together as an unrequited romance.

On the other hand I thought the Trip/T'Pol pairing on Enterprise worked though I thought the build to that was pretty hamfisted and obvious.

I also enjoyed the Worf/Jadzia and Riker/Troi 'ships. I had been rooting for Worf/Jadzia since before Worf ended up on DS9. When I first saw Blood Oath I realized that Jadzia and Word would be perfect for each other and cursed the TV gods that they were on two different shows and such a coupling could never take place. Who knew?

The Riker/Troi 'ship was handled clumsily in the TNG movies but Frakes/Sirtis had such undeniable chemistry that I thought it made up for all the writing deficiancies in those movies.

At the end of the day I don't really think Trek handles romance all that well. It does a damn good job about romantacizing space exploration and adventure but it really is shit at 'ships.
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Old September 13 2011, 01:00 AM   #58
Rojixus
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

So I guess you could say Star Trek handles some ships better than others!
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Old September 13 2011, 01:10 AM   #59
Admiral James Kirk
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Yeah. That's a good way of condensing my very long winded post into it's basic meaning.
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Old September 13 2011, 02:10 AM   #60
exodus
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Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

Admiral James Kirk wrote: View Post
Even when producers do try to build something it doesn't always work. Take Worf/Troi for example. That had ample buildup in season 7 of TNG but it didn't really work because there was no romantic or even sexual chemistry between Dorn and Sirtis. So even though they built to it the pairing still didn't work.

I also point to DS9 and Odo/Kira. That was built to for a good five or so years before it happened and there was pretty good chemistry between Vistor and Auberjonois but once they got together it all sort of fizzled. Odo/Kira worked together as an unrequited romance.

On the other hand I thought the Trip/T'Pol pairing on Enterprise worked though I thought the build to that was pretty hamfisted and obvious.

I also enjoyed the Worf/Jadzia and Riker/Troi 'ships. I had been rooting for Worf/Jadzia since before Worf ended up on DS9. When I first saw Blood Oath I realized that Jadzia and Word would be perfect for each other and cursed the TV gods that they were on two different shows and such a coupling could never take place. Who knew?

The Riker/Troi 'ship was handled clumsily in the TNG movies but Frakes/Sirtis had such undeniable chemistry that I thought it made up for all the writing deficiancies in those movies.

At the end of the day I don't really think Trek handles romance all that well. It does a damn good job about romantacizing space exploration and adventure but it really is shit at 'ships.
I found that Sisko/Yates worked very well too.
Even Rom/Leeta was fun due to the humor but all in all, I think you nailed it. I think they basically put C/7 together because they didn't want to leave Chakotay with outline for his future. It just shows you can't suddenly put effort into a character you've ignored for the last 4 years.
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