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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 9 2011, 01:59 AM   #61
fish11111111111
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Let's say you were making a brand-new character's first Star Trek,...
let's call this one the SS butterfly,,

first all of You got a think of what kind of characters could bring to this show,. that you might be thinking of,.. you need a captain. first officer,.. you need a doctor ,. And an engineer,.//The first basic on Star Trek,.//You don't know what anybody's going to look like you don't know who they will become,.//What type of a venture that would be on. how you should develop the character.. the months and years the character comes into play,.//Where they been., And where they should go,.//And what they should do,.//And then you have a show,.//Those are the basics to start on,.//
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Old September 9 2011, 03:45 AM   #62
starlitegirl
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

exodus wrote: View Post
If the writers weren't devoting time to develope main of the main cast, what good would having a secondary cast do? That's not fixing the problem, it's ignoring and using a temporary distraction in hopes of fooling the audience. That was Voyager's main problem to begin with.

Everybody seems to be avoiding the truth.
Yes, Voyager's writers weren't always the greatest.
However, many of Voyager's characters were underdeveloped because Paramount spent money to promote the show using Seven. Mulgrew & Picardo, the two divas were both fighting for equal screen time as her. Too keep the two of them happy, they gave them what they asked for which left no room for anyone else in the cast. The rest of the cast go shafted due to jealousy and ego.
I'll blame the writers.

I'm not saying it wasn't an issue that they basically turned the rest of the cast into the equivalent of CSI staff. It just happened to work out well for me because I favored those characters. But I don't think it was due to ego. I think it was partially due to the limitations of the characters set up very early in the show.

From the initial season, Janeway, Doc, and Kes had the most screen time. Episodes were devoted to other characters, however, given the nature that Janeway was the captain, she was ALWAYS going to have a high amount of screen time. Can't change that. It's silly to even try. Every Trek series has always devoted a good amount of screen time to the Captian. Doc was also always going to be a key because in enough of the episodes, he comes into play. Partly for his hologram nature and jokes centered around him. Partly because he was the doc. He was the equivalent of Data only in the role of the doc. Consider making Crusher a hologram or android in TNG and right off the bat, there's a lot of screen time. Crusher or a doc was in most every episode. Same for Data. Combine them and by default there's a large amount of screen time going to him because there's really no way around it. When it's not a hologram thing, it's a medical thing. Kes and Seven were his Mentor then Student in that order. He was crucial in fleshing out both characters and they were crucial in fleshing him out. Consider the relationship between Geordi and Data. This is the same here. A fair amount of screen time was devoted to it due to the fact that the doc was a hologram. Had the writers had the foresight to see that making the rest of the crew dislike the Doc from the start was narrowing their options, then others would have gotten more time with the doc and more involvement in his development over time for at least the first three years.
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Old September 9 2011, 03:52 AM   #63
starlitegirl
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

creek_chub wrote: View Post
In regards to Neelix, I also sort of often got the impression that he knew the crew found his antics laughable, but that it didn't bother him because, in a sort of innocent but ethnocentric way, he assumed he was the superior life form. Not that he felt anything bad towards humans or thought they were stupid per se, just...for example, I love my dog to pieces and consider him to be super smart for a dog but would be more inclined to be amused than offended if he thought I was the cute, funny one.
I had to come back to this because in Cloud Neelix just called them a bunch of idiots right after the opening music for investigating the nebula.

Edited to add Neelix's exact words: "These people are natural born idiots..."

Last edited by starlitegirl; September 9 2011 at 04:16 AM.
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Old September 9 2011, 04:28 AM   #64
Anwar
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.
DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.
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Old September 9 2011, 04:36 AM   #65
Harvey
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Why couldn't Voyager have had characters that were just as interesting?
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Old September 9 2011, 01:56 PM   #66
Anwar
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

If they weren't just a bunch of random Maquis and Fleeters, and more of the crew were Delta Quadrant aliens, and the show wasn't all about the Fleeters/Maquis wanting to go home then there'd be room for interesting characters like that.

As it was, the premise and set-up of the show limited it too much.
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Old September 9 2011, 04:06 PM   #67
creek_chub
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
creek_chub wrote: View Post
In regards to Neelix, I also sort of often got the impression that he knew the crew found his antics laughable, but that it didn't bother him because, in a sort of innocent but ethnocentric way, he assumed he was the superior life form. Not that he felt anything bad towards humans or thought they were stupid per se, just...for example, I love my dog to pieces and consider him to be super smart for a dog but would be more inclined to be amused than offended if he thought I was the cute, funny one.
I had to come back to this because in Cloud Neelix just called them a bunch of idiots right after the opening music for investigating the nebula.

Edited to add Neelix's exact words: "These people are natural born idiots..."
Too funny.
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Old September 9 2011, 05:12 PM   #68
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Anwar wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.
DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

VOY had a native American into native religions, pirates, a self-loathing half Klingon, a character facing mortality far sooner than her contemporaries, a drifter, etc. There was a lot of potential there for great character development. Its a virtual Canterbury Tales!

I think the only ones with bland backgrounds were Kim, Tuvok, and Janeway. The sad fact is the writers just weren't creative enough to make interesting stories with the characters they had and found technobabble more interesting than character growth and meaningful commentary.
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Old September 9 2011, 09:18 PM   #69
Anwar
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Well, with Chakotay the problem also was that Beltran was phoning it in nearly from day one.

The Maquis, in general, were just not fleshed out enough to really work as the Foil to the Feds they were meant to be. Either the "other group" should've been a bunch of DQ aliens who were also on the Array when it blew up, or Romulans (since Cardassians were already getting plenty of development in DS9).

Self-loathing half-klingon. Well, I guess that's a personal thing because I never thought that was interesting.

Kes, yeah there was room there. They should have expanded on the Ocampan lifecycle better: She should have been introduced as a kid, be a teenager by season 2-3 (a young one in S2, a mature one by S3) and a mid-20s adult by S4.

Neelix as well, I don't see why they didn't use that good backstory more.
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Old September 9 2011, 09:45 PM   #70
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

Anwar wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.
DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.
I think I see one flaw in your logic.

Writers created both sets of characters, if they found it difficult to come up with character devolpment ideas it could suggest a flaw in the inital characterisation they had created.
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Old September 9 2011, 09:54 PM   #71
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

I was looking forward to Kes before the show started. Then the writers missed the whole point of her. She was a great way to tell stories about aging and facing death. You could start with her seeing life through the optimism and hopes of a teenager and end the series wise, calm, reflective. But instad they just used her for telepathy stories. Her major contribution was helping the Doctor gain his humanity; and the Doctor was the highligh of VOY to me in how he explored growing pains and obtaining a sense of identity.

Same with Neelix. Neelix was filled with regrets and bitterness but you rarely saw that side. They made him into the ship's clown and irrepresible happy go lucky guy. Neelix shined when he had to face the deaths of his family or prove he was not a coward, but those instance were few and far between.

I have heard the big problems with Chakotay and Kim were Beltran and Wang were unreliable and unprofessional. I guess with them and Lien, the bigger question is, "Did producers drop the ball during casting?" They sure did in their first attempt to cast Janeway.
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Old September 9 2011, 10:01 PM   #72
Anwar
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

They did drop the ball with some casting: Beltran and Wang as the prime candidates.

Kes, well the telepathy and telekinesis were fun and a proper plot point for keeping her around. If they'd done like I'd suggested (start her off as a kid, and change to an older actress each season until she's Jen Lien) they could keep her as Lien for the rest of the series and say "Her reawakened powers fixed the aging thing."
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Old September 10 2011, 12:43 AM   #73
starlitegirl
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

creek_chub wrote: View Post
starlitegirl wrote: View Post
creek_chub wrote: View Post
In regards to Neelix, I also sort of often got the impression that he knew the crew found his antics laughable, but that it didn't bother him because, in a sort of innocent but ethnocentric way, he assumed he was the superior life form. Not that he felt anything bad towards humans or thought they were stupid per se, just...for example, I love my dog to pieces and consider him to be super smart for a dog but would be more inclined to be amused than offended if he thought I was the cute, funny one.
I had to come back to this because in Cloud Neelix just called them a bunch of idiots right after the opening music for investigating the nebula.

Edited to add Neelix's exact words: "These people are natural born idiots..."
Too funny.
I KNEW that would crack you up! The minute I heard of it you popped into my head, and I scurried here to post.

Natural born idiots! Yep, you called it!
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Old September 10 2011, 01:03 AM   #74
starlitegirl
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

I wanted Kes to stay. Personally, I still feel we could have done without Harry. There was great potential there with Kes. Also, she is one when she boards. I think maybe she just turned one or something. Or maybe a little past one.

I have to say that I don't see much difference between TNG and VOY. Granted there was a lot of Worf development TNG. And not so much with VOY probably because of TNG. It was already done a lot. But they are almost, in essence, the same characters.

Data = Doc (add sarcasm and turn him into a beam of light)
Troy = Kes (empath to telepath)
Worf = Belana + Chakotay
Geordi = Harry but far less interesting and not even 1/4 as charismatic
Crusher = template for Janeway then tone down the mothering, make the crew the family, Voyager itself as the child, plus add a whole lot more presence, confidence, tenacity.
Remove Riker and Picard - no matches there which is probably why so many dislike VOY characters, but really, Riker and Picard cannot be reproduced.
Toss in a Vulcan for good measure, and two likeable misfits for fun.

See? Basic recipe is still the same. Some tweaks here, some tweaks there. Remove two key ingredients then add a few in their place. Viola! VOYAGER is born.
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Old September 10 2011, 03:19 AM   #75
fish11111111111
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Re: Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

exodus wrote: View Post
TheLobes wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
You can't or rather shouldn't compare the crew of the Enterprise: the Flag ship of the Federation with the Voyager. Only the top graduates of the Academy serve on the Enterprise, anyone else serves on all the rest. Sorry but it's like comparing the crew of the Queen Mary to the crew of a Carnival Cruise ship.
Yes, I can compare them, and really its more relevant to say its like comparing the crew of a modern day flagship with, say, a frigate or something. Theyre both instruments of the same authority, and theyre both highly prized in terms of technology, if not grandeur. The crew of the frigate might not be quite as good as the crew of the flagship, but they would still have had to go through years of training and experience in order to be trusted and relied upon with such responsibilities.
Tal Celest passed the Academy.
Had the same training and experience as Harry Kim.
Same rank.
Is she on equal standing as an Ensign on the Enterprise?

Even if they are just ordinary people, that doesnt invalidate the point Im making. The problem is that so many other people on the ship seem to be just as capable at engineering as her.
Like who?
Who else but her, Harry and Seven did they ever show build something?

I recall O'Brian needing ALLOT of help getting DS9 to stay up and running. Sisko built the Defiant, that also trumps O'Brians skills and I also recall Dax having skills in Engineering too. LaForge often asked Data for help for almost EVERYTHING he did. Westly had ideas and created stuff LaForge never even dreamed of.








even today even today there are people out there that don't have certificate's graduate's
that didn't do the job just as well as a graduate can,.,. I think this is why Voyager into existence,...
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