Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? - Page 2

creek_chub · September 6 2011, 09:39 PM

The feeling I get through the series is that, for Janeway, the feelings may be there, but she doesn't think she can let herself have them AND be an efficient captain. Whether that's true or not from our perspective is irrelevant, Janeway seems to think this and continues to rebuff Chakotay. I don't think it's that unbelievable that he might give up trying after seven years.

But ending up with Seven? Yeah, that was a bit

Although, a pet theory I enjoy entertaining is that Admiral Janeway, who has obviously changed enough to think it's perfectly alright to try and go back to alter history, could also have changed enough that she may also see going back as an opportunity to rectify the fact that she pushed Chakotay away. After all, she knows herself, and she knows Seven. Who's to say she didn't drop the bombshell (that Chakotay and Seven get married) knowing that they would each react exactly the way they did:

Janeway, when told Seven dies in the arms of her husband, doesn't repeat "Seven" or "dies" but the word "husband" with a look of consternation. If you take into account that the crew seems unable to keep secrets and Janeway is Chakotay's friend, it's not impossible to think that she has at least an inkling that Chakotay and Seven are dating. Thus the repeated word and the dismayed look are a reaction to the fact that she just extrapolated the most likely husband for Seven. Especially if (and this works nicely into the theory that Admiral Janeway is attempting to do this on purpose, since she's also about to send them back to Earth waaaay earlier than she herself got back) there was a part of her that hoped Chakotay would remain available indefinitely so that once they did get home and went their separate ways (career-wise) then she could allow him to pursue her.

As for Seven, if I recall correctly, we don't get any kind of absolute affirmation that she and Chakotay stay together. In fact, it's pretty telling that her reaction is to immediately pull away, even knowing that they're working on changing the timeline and thus taking away the situation in which she dies. Given her issues with attempting to become more human and less borg, I can easily see this being a concept that continues to bother her and, as a result, she continues pulling away from Chakotay, even once they're back on Earth.

Like I said, though, it's just a little pet theory and honestly, it could be tweaked to suit the Janeway/Seven shippers, too.

All in good fun.

Jeff O'Connor · September 6 2011, 09:42 PM

Skywalker wrote:

Jeff O'Connor wrote:

Behind-the-scenes chest-thumping on the part of Robert Beltran, I'm told.

I don't get how Beltran could have ever had that kind of pull. Frakking Harry Kim was more important to the show than Chakotay was.

There is an interview clip on YouTube with Robert Beltran discussing what he told Brannon Braga -- definitely chest-thumping as he proclaimed that since Braga was dating Jeri Ryan, 'I guess that ends Chakotay's chances with her' or something similarly silly.

I'll try to find it later. Of course, even Beltran's proclamations might not mean terribly much. After all, he was an actor, not a producer. But the insinuation from him, at least, is that it happened because he spoke up about Chakotay's underutilized nature and got Seven of Nine's character involved in the shenanigans that time. Then Braga obliged.

Jeff O'Connor · September 6 2011, 09:45 PM

MatthiasRussell wrote:

Seven and the Doctor were the obvious choice.

Yes, they unequivocally were.

I don't fancy myself the shipping sort. Most romances bore me to tears. But as a youth I watched the very obvious, very intellectually entertaining pseudo-romance of Seven of Nine and The Doctor go through believable and downright intriguing twists and turns only to be deactivated at the last minute.

Hell, correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while) but didn't "Renaissance Man" have The Doctor speaking up candidly about his feelings for Seven when he thought he was going to perish? Wasn't that the penultimate episode? If I'm right (and I hope I'm wrong, but I think I'm right) then that's just ridiculous.

Markira · September 6 2011, 09:54 PM

^ You're right. And it is ridiculous. Offensive, even. It would have been so easy to have a few moments of set-up during "Natural Law" between Chakotay and Seven to make their eventual courtship more believable.

Jeff O'Connor · September 6 2011, 10:02 PM

Yeah, it threw me for a spin at 13. I don't exactly look forward to what my reaction will be at 24 since I'm rewatching the series now.

JanewayRulz! · September 6 2011, 10:29 PM

MatthiasRussell wrote:

Similarly, Chakotay and Janeway were being developed to be a couple for years but trek doesn't like captains in committed relationships.

Think about it. In DS9, trek KILLED Sisko's wife, not just once but twice if you count the mirror universe version.

Then they gave him Kassidy, but put her in jail.

Then she got out of jail and (?) married him... so they elevated him to wormhole prophet to escape domestic blissdom.

MatthiasRussell wrote:

The episode where the 2 were facing being stranded alone in a planet showed the attraction plainly.

Oh. My. GAWD. Yes!

With apologies to shatnerage... Janeway DID give up trying to escape the planet when there was no other choice after the storm, and its safe to say she was LOOKING FORWARD to bathing in the "river" on their boating trip...

when Tuvok that blasted Vulcan had to come a calling and spoil her fun.

AuntKate · September 7 2011, 04:48 PM

I think it is quite likely that Janeway reciprocated Chakotay affection, but that she was also dedicated to her position and responsibility to the point of sacrificing that to duty. Viewers tend to think of Voyager as "TNG Lite" and forget the true danger they faced and the isolation they endured. They literally had no backup whatsoever, and the responsibility that Janeway faced had to be terrible.

As for the Admiral, well, her motives are not very well defined. It is out of character for Janeway to throw away two decades of history simply because she wanted to get home sooner, yet that is all we are shown on the finale. It is only natural to speculate about other motives, personal and professional, in order to make her actions more forgivable. I like to think there were many issues that made her do what she did, including having a second chance at a relationship with Chakotay. There is some very fine fanfic that explores this situation in hundreds of different ways.

Jeff O'Connor · September 7 2011, 08:38 PM

AuntKate wrote:

Viewers tend to think of Voyager as "TNG Lite"

Which amuses me because from a very early age I've always considered TNG "Voyager lite". Since well before I had regular access to the internet, in fact!

I just love that premise so much.

Rojixus · September 8 2011, 11:10 PM

I just assumed 7 blackmailed Chakotay into going out with her to get back at Janeway over the whole Omega particle debacle.

Guy Gardener · September 9 2011, 12:04 AM

Well that's obviously the only way that she could trick a relatively straight bloke into taking his clothes off.

Fang66 · September 9 2011, 12:17 AM

The question is ludicrously stupid. Choice A hot cyborg babe, choice B frumpy and grumpy general Janeway. The real question should be why did 7 choose Chakotay instead of one of the male crewmen who actually produced testosterone.

Smellincoffee · September 9 2011, 12:20 AM

Because a relationship between two middle-aged adults wouldn't do much for the ratings, but any scene with Seven -- especially a romantic one -- would.

exodus · September 9 2011, 01:29 AM

I honestly think it was meant as an inside joke and big "F-U" to Mulgrew for not allowing Janeway to have an on going romantic interest like they wanted. I think they wanted to get Janeway & Chakotay together for a long, long time and Mulgrew heatedly refused every time. The writers knew J/C was part of the dynamtic that could have improved the show and brought in more viewers. So their answer was to Mulgrew was, then Janeway will never have him and paired him up with Seven instead. So because Mulgrew wanted Janeway to be all career, a career is now all she has.

Plus it being the last ep., Mulgrew couldn't debate it.

Rojixus · September 9 2011, 01:48 AM

Fang66 wrote:

The question is ludicrously stupid. Choice A hot cyborg babe, choice B frumpy and grumpy general Janeway. The real question should be why did 7 choose Chakotay instead of one of the male crewmen who actually produced testosterone.

I already said, to get back at Janeway.

starlitegirl · September 9 2011, 04:00 AM

I thought they made perfect sense (Seven and Chakotay) because he was a bit of a teacher to her and brought out her humanity more. She came to appreciate his view of things, his anthropological view like in One Small Step and the one where they crash. They were almost opposites, but there was a bit of teacher/student going on there and it was clear that admiration developed. Seven was more like a young student at college, so I can see how that would appeal to Chakotay and how his views would appeal to her. He pushed her to see things but not to be a certain way which the Doc and Janeway did. She always resisted. Chakotay let her see for herself.

September 6 2011, 09:39 PM	#16
creek_chub Lieutenant Commander	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? The feeling I get through the series is that, for Janeway, the feelings may be there, but she doesn't think she can let herself have them AND be an efficient captain. Whether that's true or not from our perspective is irrelevant, Janeway seems to think this and continues to rebuff Chakotay. I don't think it's that unbelievable that he might give up trying after seven years. But ending up with Seven? Yeah, that was a bit Although, a pet theory I enjoy entertaining is that Admiral Janeway, who has obviously changed enough to think it's perfectly alright to try and go back to alter history, could also have changed enough that she may also see going back as an opportunity to rectify the fact that she pushed Chakotay away. After all, she knows herself, and she knows Seven. Who's to say she didn't drop the bombshell (that Chakotay and Seven get married) knowing that they would each react exactly the way they did: Janeway, when told Seven dies in the arms of her husband, doesn't repeat "Seven" or "dies" but the word "husband" with a look of consternation. If you take into account that the crew seems unable to keep secrets and Janeway is Chakotay's friend, it's not impossible to think that she has at least an inkling that Chakotay and Seven are dating. Thus the repeated word and the dismayed look are a reaction to the fact that she just extrapolated the most likely husband for Seven. Especially if (and this works nicely into the theory that Admiral Janeway is attempting to do this on purpose, since she's also about to send them back to Earth waaaay earlier than she herself got back) there was a part of her that hoped Chakotay would remain available indefinitely so that once they did get home and went their separate ways (career-wise) then she could allow him to pursue her. As for Seven, if I recall correctly, we don't get any kind of absolute affirmation that she and Chakotay stay together. In fact, it's pretty telling that her reaction is to immediately pull away, even knowing that they're working on changing the timeline and thus taking away the situation in which she dies. Given her issues with attempting to become more human and less borg, I can easily see this being a concept that continues to bother her and, as a result, she continues pulling away from Chakotay, even once they're back on Earth. Like I said, though, it's just a little pet theory and honestly, it could be tweaked to suit the Janeway/Seven shippers, too. All in good fun. __________________ "It can giggle all it wants. But the galaxy's not gettin any of our bourbon." -Trip

September 6 2011, 09:54 PM	#19
Markira Commander Location: Wherever Chakotay is, I am	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? ^ You're right. And it is ridiculous. Offensive, even. It would have been so easy to have a few moments of set-up during "Natural Law" between Chakotay and Seven to make their eventual courtship more believable. __________________ Nothing makes us more vulnerable than when we love someone. -Chakotay, "Twisted" [avatar courtesy of belanna]

September 6 2011, 10:02 PM	#20
Jeff O'Connor Commodore Location: Tampa, FL	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? Yeah, it threw me for a spin at 13. I don't exactly look forward to what my reaction will be at 24 since I'm rewatching the series now. __________________ Star Trek 1966-

September 7 2011, 04:48 PM	#22
AuntKate Commodore Location: USA--smack dab in the middle	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? I think it is quite likely that Janeway reciprocated Chakotay affection, but that she was also dedicated to her position and responsibility to the point of sacrificing that to duty. Viewers tend to think of Voyager as "TNG Lite" and forget the true danger they faced and the isolation they endured. They literally had no backup whatsoever, and the responsibility that Janeway faced had to be terrible. As for the Admiral, well, her motives are not very well defined. It is out of character for Janeway to throw away two decades of history simply because she wanted to get home sooner, yet that is all we are shown on the finale. It is only natural to speculate about other motives, personal and professional, in order to make her actions more forgivable. I like to think there were many issues that made her do what she did, including having a second chance at a relationship with Chakotay. There is some very fine fanfic that explores this situation in hundreds of different ways. __________________ "There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it, too." CPT Janeway

September 8 2011, 11:10 PM	#24
Rojixus Commander Location: the Dreadfort	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? I just assumed 7 blackmailed Chakotay into going out with her to get back at Janeway over the whole Omega particle debacle. __________________ First immortality, then the bitches.

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September 9 2011, 12:04 AM	#25
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? Well that's obviously the only way that she could trick a relatively straight bloke into taking his clothes off. __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

September 9 2011, 12:17 AM	#26
Fang66 Lieutenant Commander Location: decontamination with T'Pol or Tokyo	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? The question is ludicrously stupid. Choice A hot cyborg babe, choice B frumpy and grumpy general Janeway. The real question should be why did 7 choose Chakotay instead of one of the male crewmen who actually produced testosterone.

September 9 2011, 12:20 AM	#27
Smellincoffee Fleet Captain Location: Vulcan	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? Because a relationship between two middle-aged adults wouldn't do much for the ratings, but any scene with Seven -- especially a romantic one -- would. __________________ "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.." - Commander Montgomery Scott.

September 9 2011, 01:29 AM	#28
exodus Fleet Admiral Location: The Digital Garden	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? I honestly think it was meant as an inside joke and big "F-U" to Mulgrew for not allowing Janeway to have an on going romantic interest like they wanted. I think they wanted to get Janeway & Chakotay together for a long, long time and Mulgrew heatedly refused every time. The writers knew J/C was part of the dynamtic that could have improved the show and brought in more viewers. So their answer was to Mulgrew was, then Janeway will never have him and paired him up with Seven instead. So because Mulgrew wanted Janeway to be all career, a career is now all she has. Plus it being the last ep., Mulgrew couldn't debate it. __________________ Life's a bitch.........until you have a orgasm.

September 9 2011, 04:00 AM	#30
starlitegirl Lieutenant Commander Location: in the moment	Re: Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway? I thought they made perfect sense (Seven and Chakotay) because he was a bit of a teacher to her and brought out her humanity more. She came to appreciate his view of things, his anthropological view like in One Small Step and the one where they crash. They were almost opposites, but there was a bit of teacher/student going on there and it was clear that admiration developed. Seven was more like a young student at college, so I can see how that would appeal to Chakotay and how his views would appeal to her. He pushed her to see things but not to be a certain way which the Doc and Janeway did. She always resisted. Chakotay let her see for herself.